Finding more out about MJK

[MrBarnett]

I doubt that 'an artist of no mean degree' was a direct quote. Mrs 'Carthy' may well have been illiterate herself and would have considered anyone who could write her own name and draw a passable dog was a 'scholar and an artist'.

MrB

[The Good Michael]

I doubt that 'an artist of no mean degree' was a direct quote. Mrs 'Carthy' may well have been illiterate herself and would have considered anyone who could write her own name and draw a passable dog was a 'scholar and an artist'.

Exactly my thoughts. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man gets 6d a night.


Mike

[The Good Michael]

Kelly propositioned Hutchinson for sex for sixpence but he couldn't bring himself to say she asked him to pay to have sex with her, of course. The proposition for sex which he couldn't afford might have caused him to wait outside Millers Court and fantasise about what he was missing out on.

In your novel of course.

Mike

[markmorey5]

In my novel Mary Kelly asks Hutchinson to go with her to her room for sixpence, and I'm not the only one who has put the going rate and his account of her asking for a loan of sixpence together, and coming up with an answer. Beyond that brief exchange I'm not interested in Hutchinson in my novel. I'm interested in Mary Kelly as an example of the way women were mistreated in that country at that time. There were thousands upon thousands of Mary Kellys, all with a story to tell.

Miss Marple covers Kelly's probable life fairly well. The recounting of it has been accused of being romantic, but really it's quite ordinary and quite believable.

During the writing of my two novels I read a novel set in the 1870s, and it had many obvious errors which I spotted from my own general knowledge. So I wanted to get things right, which included how much a woman like Kelly would have charged for raising her skirts in a lane, what sort of birth control she may have used and how they did the deed (to my modern eyes, sex in a yard or a lane seems rather awkward being standing front-on skirts raised, but that's how they did it). The birth control ties in with the conversation Hutchinson overheard too (a folded silk handkerchief was not uncommon).

[The Good Michael]

In my novel Mary Kelly asks Hutchinson to go with her to her room for sixpence, and I'm not the only one who has put the going rate and his account of her asking for a loan of sixpence together, and coming up with an answer. Beyond that brief exchange I'm not interested in Hutchinson in my novel. I'm interested in Mary Kelly as an example of the way women were mistreated in that country at that time. There were thousands upon thousands of Mary Kellys, all with a story to tell.

Miss Marple covers Kelly's probable life fairly well. The recounting of it has been accused of being romantic, but really it's quite ordinary and quite believable.

During the writing of my two novels I read a novel set in the 1870s, and it had many obvious errors which I spotted from my own general knowledge. So I wanted to get things right, which included how much a woman like Kelly would have charged for raising her skirts in a lane, what sort of birth control she may have used and how they did the deed (to my modern eyes, sex in a yard or a lane seems rather awkward being standing front-on skirts raised, but that's how they did it). The birth control ties in with the conversation Hutchinson overheard too (a folded silk handkerchief was not uncommon).

Hi Mark,

I was just remarking that the idea of Hutchinson actually wanting to use her services and then following her, was from your novel and not necessarily representative of the situation. The 6D I have no concerns with when referring to someone a bit more desirable. Yet with Kelly, I think that's also debatable at this particular point in her life.

Mike

[markmorey5]

It's wrong to speak ill of the dead, and after Kelly was murdered her friends and neighbours mostly described her as a pleasant and quiet woman who was noisy and quarrelsome when drunk (broken windows and the like). Mary McCarthy's mother-in-law described Kelly's behaviour in a similar way from some years earlier at Breezers Hill. Obviously this is why she was sometimes called 'Black Mary', but the general picture is that most of the time she was pleasant, and she's also described as having many friends. Two spring to mind in the latter part of her life: Maria Harvey and Lizzie Albrook, and she also kept a friendship with Joe Barnett.

We can't tell her facial features but the description 'stout' doesn't gel with the unmutilated parts of her corpse like her arms, unless the description is akin to busty or perhaps that she had broad hips and shoulders. You don't get fat from drinking because alcohol speeds up your metabolism, although you will get fat if you drink, eat too much and don't exercise. In 1888 they did exercise even if it was just walking from place to place in Whitechapel. All in all I think Kelly was probably worth 6d at that time.

In my novel I have Kelly propositioning Hutchinson who doesn't have any money, and then she moves to a well-dressed gent and they talk for a while, including the lost handkerchief which was her birth control. She takes the gent to her room and removes her clothes. I don't mention Hutchinson because Kelly is the POV character, but some non-fiction writers have thought that Hutchinson's motive to follow her and wait was out of jealousy in that he didn't have 6d to spend time in Kelly's room. A man like Hutchinson would have had an irregular sex life, and that night he missed out because of a small amount of money. Kelly had her own room and there would have been comfort and privacy with her. Oddly the room was in Kelly's name and not Barnett, and while the room wasn't much it was the same price per night as a double bed in a lodging house. She was shrewd enough to find better quality lodgings at a knock-down price.

Back to the novel. The next morning another character who knows Kelly is having breakfast and she hears of the murder and mutilation. And then I have to make sense out of meaningless slaughter, and if you read the story maybe it will make sense. Those who test-read it thought so.

[MayBea]

One way a woman can be stout one day and not the next is by getting pregnant and then having a baby.

I suggested she was about three months pregnant when she met Joe so, by summer, she'd be out and about in warm weather in her second and third trimester.

Of course, Mary getting pregnant and having a baby is considered a romantic notion for some reason.

I guess it's because it's a Mary, and a Joseph, living together in "an Inn".

[Natasha]

One way a woman can be stout one day and not the next is by getting pregnant and then having a baby.

I suggested she was about three months pregnant when she met Joe so, by summer, she'd be out and about in warm weather in her second and third trimester.

Of course, Mary getting pregnant and having a baby is considered a romantic notion for some reason.

I guess it's because it's a Mary, and a Joseph, living together in "an Inn".

Hi MayBea

I don't think that sounds like a romantic notion. If anything could it be the reason she was killed?
Maybe someone wanted that baby, could it be the case that MJK could have been a surrogate mother?
Could it be possible that Kelly was demanding more money for the child? maybe the killer wanted the murder to look like the work of the ripper.

I know there has been suggesting that it was an abortion gone wrong.

I know everyone will pull out the Bond report, but the report was not exhaustive, it was not an in depth report.

What do you think?

[MayBea]

I think she could've had a baby and that it could be the reason she was considered stout, and the reason for the Royal baby rumors.

But that doesn't mean it necessarily had anything to do with the murders, hers or the others. Even if the killer was the father, he might have killed her anyway.

I put forward the case of an old Mary candidate who had a baby in 1887, and she was dismissed because everyone thinks Joe Barnett would have known about it and mentioned it.

[MayBea]

Natasha,

What do you, or anyone else, think about Mary being secretive because she was still married?

What if her husband was still alive? Perhaps she left him because he was sick or abusive, and she felt guilty and didn't want to be identified. And she didn't want her boyfriends to find out.

[Penhalion]

That makes at least as much sense as most of the theories I've heard and much more than some. I'm not sure she'd be that worried about her current beau's finding out she was married. Judging by the living arrangements of other victims, the alive/dead status of a legal husband doesn't seem to bother the denizens of Whitechapel all that much. I'm much more willing to go with MJK having fled an abusive/unpleasant relationship and not wanting to be found by her husband/whatever he might have been. No Royal Conspiracies needed!

[MayBea]

Thanks, Penhalion. If it's true that she was secretive for this reason or other, then she likely wouldn't use her real name if she was Mary Kelly and came from Wales. She'd be easy to identify then and now as there are only 30 listed in Wales in 1881 ages 9 to 29 (Ancestry.ca).

All 1881 Wales Census results for Mary Kelly
Search Filters
NewBroadExact
mary
kelly
Born: 1863 +/-10
Lived In: wales
Results 1–31 of 31

If her name is really Mary Kelly, there's every reason to believe she's not from Wales. That leaves England and maybe Scotland, correct?

[Penhalion]

I am doubtful that MJK was pregnant any time close to her murder.

She would have been a terrible surrogate mother. Anyone with the wherewithal to pay someone to have a baby for them (a rather oddish idea back then) would not have left this surrogate to eke out a living through prostitution while drinking heavily and not eating properly (supposition but highly probable). At the very least, while she was carrying the baby her needs would have been provided for and we know she was in Whitechapel for at least 18 months prior to her death because she was with Barnett.

She had not had a baby recently. The uterus, while removed from the abdomen, was present and could be inspected and since nothing particular was noted, we can only assume that there was nothing particular to note. In other words, the clear signs of recent pregnancy were not in evidence. A recently gravid uterus would have been important information.

If it was an abortion gone wrong, there would be no reason to butcher her as was done. Simply closing the door and walking away would have been enough to erase the identity of the abortionist and the death would have been chalked up to a sad turn of events. Perhaps a charge of murder would have been brought, just as it was, but it would still have been against Person or Persons Unknown. Nothing would be gained by the carnage in this case.

If she had been pregnant longer ago than 18 months, then how was she to prove the disputed baby was hers? In her position in life, any respectable person's word would have been taken over hers. She wouldn't have been believed and at worse she might have found herself imprisoned on charges of libel or fraud.

I'm afraid the pregnancy angle raises more questions than it answers.

[Scott Nelson]

If her name is really Mary Kelly, there's every reason to believe she's not from Wales. That leaves England and maybe Scotland, correct?

Pantigonia. Then there's Ireland.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hi,

Could be an error, they are quite common on census returns of the period.
Could be that these particular Kellys had been living in England for generations and, possibly through marriage, had switched to C of E.
Or maybe C of E was used as a default for someone who had no religious affiliation.

MrB

Don't know if this is of any use, but you cannot marry twice as a Catholic, unless the marriage is annulled or the person is a widow.