Finding more out about MJK

[Bridewell]

Whilst I think the idea of MJK sleeping with a photograph of McCarthy beside her bed should be treated with extreme caution, the possibility should not be completely discounted.

Mrs McCarthy might not have disapproved if MJK was in fact a family member. That might also explain the exceptional rent arrears which she was allowed to accumulate.

[Bridewell]

As such a photograph has never been mentioned the likelihood has to be that it never existed. If it did exist why did the police not find and refer to it? I would surmise that there was no photograph; if there was it would raise the possibility that either Indian Harry or McCarthy removed it before going to the police - which would open up another can of worms. On balance, I fear, no photograph, much as I would prefer it to be otherwise.

[Natasha]

Whilst I think the idea of MJK sleeping with a photograph of McCarthy beside her bed should be treated with extreme caution, the possibility should not be completely discounted.

Mrs McCarthy might not have disapproved if MJK was in fact a family member. That might also explain the exceptional rent arrears which she was allowed to accumulate.

Hi Bridewell

You might have something there

I have suggested that it may be possible that Kelly was born in France, and it does say on here that John McCarthy was born in France and I did hint at the possibility that Kelly may have known McCarthy s family. So yeah that could be a possibility.

[Natasha]

The fact that the rent was allowed to go into arrears, does suggest that there is more to the story of Kelly & McCarthy

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff

Thanks for the info

Now that you mention it, it would interesting to see (if they do exist) criminal mugshots pre 1889s that you speak of.
I know ancestry have some, the majority are from 1889 though.

If you can locate an old biography of the murderer/buglar par excellance, Charles Peace, called "King of the Lags" (published around 1960), you can find several photos of Peace taken by the police. He was hanged in 1879.

Jeff

[Natasha]

If you can locate an old biography of the murderer/buglar par excellance, Charles Peace, called "King of the Lags" (published around 1960), you can find several photos of Peace taken by the police. He was hanged in 1879.

Jeff

Hi Jeff

Thank you, will look for this

[markmorey5]

If you look at photos taken at this period in time you will see them posed and stuffy, given the plate cameras in use at the time. It would not have been common for ordinary, poor, working class people to have photographs; Kelly or the witnesses. Lack of ready availability of cameras would explain why the only crime scene photos are in Kelly's room, and even then they moved furniture around to set the camera up to take pictures of the body on the bed. Given the rarity of cameras It would have been just as likely that crime scene photos of Millers Court would not have been taken, and it's our good fortune that they were taken.

We all wonder about the rent arrears and I think there could be a connection between Mary Carthy (McCarthy) of Breezers Hill, McCarthy the landlord and Mary Kelly.

[Natasha]

MJK, an artist in her own right

Hi All

We are all aware that Walter Sickert is a suspect in this case, but I don't think he was the ripper. I think it is possible that Kelly knew Sickert (maybe not too well but maybe they were acquaintances), and was an artist in her own right.
Joseph Barnett and Mrs. Carthy, a woman with whom she lived at one time, say that she came from a family that was "fairly well off" (Barnett) and "well to do people" (Carthy). Mrs. Carthy also states that Kelly was "an excellent scholar and an artist of no mean degree."


Sickertt went to Dieppe France alot, could it be possible that Sickertt was the man who accompanied Kelly to France? I think so.
John McCarthy, landlord, was born there also, according to info under the witness pages on CB.

[miss marple]

Natasha, you are putting a few disconnected facts together, to create a theory.
It is meaningless.
I Read the Life of Sickert by Matthew Sturgis

2 Mrs Carthy's flattering description was said to impress a newspaper man [she probably loved a story and had the Irish blarney] and make MK seem more interesting as none of it matches what we know. Also you forget MK was a whore, and' artist of no mean degree' could be a comment on her bedroom skills

3 If MK did go to France it was more likely to be a punter she met while whoring in Knightsbridge/ West End. Or she could have gone to a french brothel as many English girls were recruited for french brothels.

4 There is no verifiable connection between Sickert and MK

5 John McCarthy was born in France but spent his life in London.


Miss Marple

[MrBarnett]

Hi Miss Marple,

What do we know about MJK that in any way contradicts Mrs Carthy's comments about her artistic skills? Wouldn't it be an odd thing to say to impress a reporter if it had no basis in fact?

And as for Mrs Carthy's gift of the gab, we can't even be sure who she is and you've invented an ethnicity for her.

MrB

[Natasha]

Natasha, you are putting a few disconnected facts together, to create a theory.
It is meaningless.
I Read the Life of Sickert by Matthew Sturgis

2 Mrs Carthy's flattering description was said to impress a newspaper man [she probably loved a story and had the Irish blarney] and make MK seem more interesting as none of it matches what we know. Also you forget MK was a whore, and' artist of no mean degree' could be a comment on her bedroom skills

3 If MK did go to France it was more likely to be a punter she met while whoring in Knightsbridge/ West End. Or she could have gone to a french brothel as many English girls were recruited for french brothels.

4 There is no verifiable connection between Sickert and MK

5 John McCarthy was born in France but spent his life in London.


Miss Marple

Miss Marple

It did cross my mind that Sickert never spoke directly of MJK, which is why I said they may have been acquaintances. Also we don't know what she was called, if she wasn't called Mary.

You don't need to have been to an established school to be an artist. I have never been taught how to draw/paint, and have a natural talent for it. Also there is a young boy who is making alot of money from his Monet style paintings, he has a natural talent for painting.
The comment made by McCarthy may have indicated that MJK had never been to an established school of art.

You are making presumptions also, why is it ok for you to do to this? I know you have read the book on Sickert, but no one knows his whole life story, unless someone followed him everywhere and watched his every movement. That is why we all make assumptions, because we don't know all the facts.

Just because Sickert had money, doesn't mean he was too much of a snob to talk to classes below his own. There are many eccentric painters, Frances Bacon for example painted a man after he attempted to burgle Bacon's house.

McCarthy the landlord having been born in France could may have gone to France with Kelly, another possibility.

Hi Miss Marple,

What do we know about MJK that in any way contradicts Mrs Carthy's comments about her artistic skills? Wouldn't it be an odd thing to say to impress a reporter if it had no basis in fact?

And as for Mrs Carthy's gift of the gab, we can't even be sure who she is and you've invented an ethnicity for her.

MrB

Hi MrB

I agree, we don't know anything for sure, so all we can do is assume.

[The Good Michael]

If MJK was a very popular girl and had gone to France, and had been very attractive, and had been in demand in Wales prior to coming to London, and had been related to McCarthy, she probably would have had a photo taken somewhere in there. The fact that there is no photo of her kind of defers to her being no different than the others who were killed in regards of looks, station in life, and popularity. I think many of the things we've read about her are creations, and romanticized versions of the truth.

Mike

[Natasha]

If MJK was a very popular girl and had gone to France, and had been very attractive, and had been in demand in Wales prior to coming to London, and had been related to McCarthy, she probably would have had a photo taken somewhere in there. The fact that there is no photo of her kind of defers to her being no different than the others who were killed in regards of looks, station in life, and popularity. I think many of the things we've read about her are creations, and romanticized versions of the truth.

Mike

Hi Mike

What makes you think there aint a pic out there?
We have all questioned the cost involved with getting a pic done and other factors, but I still think it may be possible that a picture might be out there, and not necessarily with McCarthy. Also I don't think you needed to be a millionaire to go to France. Most of the Irish people on board the Titanic weren't rich, but they still managed to get on. And I'm willing to bet that it would cost more to travel to another country, then to get a pic taken back then.

There are alot of romanticized versions of the truth in regards to Kelly, but her case is a very odd one. The biggest difference between Kelly & the other victims is that none of her family came forward.
People have suggested that maybe she was disowned, but according to Barnett, her sister was on good terms with her. Why did she not come forward? She also had 6 brothers living in London, so Barnett says again. Even if MJK was not her name, I still think the family would put 2 & 2 together and investigate weather MJK was indeed their relative.

Could it not be possible that she was the black sheep of a very well to do family? And perhaps if a family member did come forward, they didn't want anyone to know about it?

The inquest for her death was short. Why?

I still think there is more then meets the eye with this case.

[The Good Michael]

Why would the inquest be short? It could be, and this is a guess, that there was no doubt in anyone's mind that Kelly was murdered and there were few witnesses. Plenty of time was given for the few witnesses to speak and for the jury to decide it was murder. If you read the inquest proceedings, you will see that the coroner specifically asked if they should meet again or save the minutiae for the police courts at a later date. The jury had had enough. The point of the inquest was to determine cause of death and that's it. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

As far as Kelly's family, who knows. Nothing nefarious.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

What makes you think there aint a pic out there?



Could it not be possible that she was the black sheep of a very well to do family? And perhaps if a family member did come forward, they didn't want anyone to know about it?

Because a lot of money could be made from it. In this day and age, the vast majority of people would love to have their 15 minutes of fame, especially if it came with stacks of bills.

And, no I would find it nearly unfathomable that she came from a rich family. You mentioned 6 brothers...and the father was a foreman...no riches there unless you decide what portion is made up and what isn't and then we get into the BS that we see all too often in the speculation on the boards.

Cheers,

Mike