Finding more out about MJK

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

If only research would turn up a crumb.

Cheers.
LC

What ever the reason, at present it does appear the name used by the victim was false.

[lynn cates]

good luck

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

Well, good luck with your research.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Quite.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Quite.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

Quite not proven, if you ask me.

Cheers

[Natasha]

Hi

Everyone has looked on the census records, infirmary records etc for information on MJK, but has anyone ever researched the criminal records? She may be listed on one of these registers.

[MayBea]

Hi MayBea,
Thanks for finding out about Jennet Davies

You're welcome, Natasha.

I think this is the best way to eliminate candidates and find the real MJK.

Do you think so too? Or would you eliminate candidates based on something other than finding them alive or dead after Nov. 9, 1888?

I'm not including finding them a thousand miles or many days' travel away when she should be in London, or finding they had a completely different description. That would also be grounds for elimination.

[MayBea]

Using that last offering as leverage, it had crossed my mind some time ago that IF the woman killed in room 13 was not the real Mary Kelly, then she knew the real Mary Kelly.

That's very original, Wickerman. I have to admit I never thought of that one, and I thought I thought of everything.

The closest I ever came to that idea is thinking she took her identity or parts of it from a character in literature.

How Green Was My Valley was written 50 years too late, but Kipling published an Indian coal mine story in February of 1888 about an old miner who marries a beautiful young woman and then gets trapped in the mine. At Twenty Two. She ends up running off.

[Sam Flynn]

Everyone has looked on the census records, infirmary records etc for information on MJK, but has anyone ever researched the criminal records? She may be listed on one of these registers.

There's mention of one Mary Jane Kelley [sic.] being charged with disorderly behaviour, referenced in Philip Sugden's book: "She was probably the Mary Jane Kelley, aged twenty-two, who was fined 2/6 at Thames Magistrates' Court on 19 September 1888 for being drunk and disorderly". (I'm looking at the Kindle version, so I can't give you a page number.)

Whether it's been confirmed that this was definitely "our" Mary I'm not sure. Apart from this one, I'm not aware that any other criminal records have been found that might refer to her.

[Wickerman]

That's very original, Wickerman. I have to admit I never thought of that one, and I thought I thought of everything.

Hi MayBea.

Not too original, afterall, identity theft is nothing new.
It's easier to maintain a lie if that lie is based on a truth.
And as I have said before, not every detail is required to fit. We are not looking for Cinderella's Glass slipper.

The closest I ever came to that idea is thinking she took her identity or parts of it from a character in literature.

How Green Was My Valley was written 50 years too late, but Kipling published an Indian coal mine story in February of 1888 about an old miner who marries a beautiful young woman and then gets trapped in the mine. At Twenty Two. She ends up running off.

Something of a similar nature occurred to me too.
In the art world, given that the 'posing nude' had been popular, it crossed my mind that Mary had been positioned in that particular pose to mimic a work of art.
Where that would lead, who knows...

Oh, and this was years before Sickert was offered up for sacrifice.

[Sam Flynn]

The closest I ever came to that idea is thinking she took her identity or parts of it from a character in literature.

How Green Was My Valley was written 50 years too late, but Kipling published an Indian coal mine story in February of 1888 about an old miner who marries a beautiful young woman and then gets trapped in the mine. At Twenty Two. She ends up running off.

The Kipling story is a bit late for MJK, too - it's evident she was telling her tale of tragic romance down 't pit since her arrival in the East End in 1884/5. Coincidentally, these two years were when Émile Zola's coal-mining novel, Germinal, had been published in serialised form, and to great popular acclaim, in Paris. The plot doesn't really fit the Kelly story, though.

It's more likely, I feel, that if she concocted this story, its inspiration was the widely-known fact of actual Welsh mining disasters, which left many hundreds of young widows behind.

[Natasha]

You're welcome, Natasha.

I think this is the best way to eliminate candidates and find the real MJK.

Do you think so too? Or would you eliminate candidates based on something other than finding them alive or dead after Nov. 9, 1888?

I'm not including finding them a thousand miles or many days' travel away when she should be in London, or finding they had a completely different description. That would also be grounds for elimination.

Hi MayBea

No one has done that before so it would be a good start. I did suggest looking at criminal records, so this could maybe give us some indication as to why she was so secretive.

[Natasha]

There's mention of one Mary Jane Kelley [sic.] being charged with disorderly behaviour, referenced in Philip Sugden's book: "She was probably the Mary Jane Kelley, aged twenty-two, who was fined 2/6 at Thames Magistrates' Court on 19 September 1888 for being drunk and disorderly". (I'm looking at the Kindle version, so I can't give you a page number.)

Whether it's been confirmed that this was definitely "our" Mary I'm not sure. Apart from this one, I'm not aware that any other criminal records have been found that might refer to her.

Hi Sam

Thanks, I know about that 'record', but what about looking further back, maybe she had a criminal past when in Wales. Or maybe she was a witness at a trial.

[MayBea]

What do you think about her being secretive because her husband was still alive? She could have left him behind crippled or sick or dying.

And if she had kids, there's a good chance she's mentioned as part of a family tree or a genealogical forum thread, with no known year of death.

[Natasha]

What do you think about her being secretive because her husband was still alive? She could have left him behind crippled or sick or dying.

And if she had kids, there's a good chance she's mentioned as part of a family tree or a genealogical forum thread, with no known year of death.

Hi MayBea

I like your way of thinking.

That could be a real possiblity, he may have been in an accident and was left disfigured, insert whatever other reason, and MJK left him. Could he be the man she was scared of?
This murder displayed intense emotional attchment to the victim, so could be a crime of passion.

The family tree thing could be a good starting point

[GUT]

G'day MayBea

What do you think about her being secretive because her husband was still alive? She could have left him behind crippled or sick or dying.

And if she had kids, there's a good chance she's mentioned as part of a family tree or a genealogical forum thread, with no known year of death.

But by what name would she be mentioned?