Finding more out about MJK

[Natasha]

Hi everyone

I am new to the site, and am very impressed with the level of investigating JTR, so much so I was having a hard time posting a new thread.

I just thought that maybe someone could track down some of the actors/actress s of the time. I looked up Marie Lloyd and it made me think of something MJK apparently said, that she had a relative on stage. I believe it possible for a person of lower class to be able to gain a job in the theatre. I also read on here that a Fiona Kendall, (I think she is related to MCcarthy, said in 2008 speaking of MJK 'she also displayed a framed photograph of her noted ancestor'. Now the fact that at the end of the paragraph it said 'this photograph has yet to be published' may offer some hope of finding out more about MJK. I am aware that Kendall may have been exaggerating, but maybe its worth finding out more.

Also I was watching a programme about Victorian shop girls. There were shop girls, dressmakers etc who worked as prostitutes as well. There was a particular department store owner Mr William Whiteley, who would select girls from his shop to take with him to Paris. When he went on the prowl looking for these girls, they would try and hide as to avoid his advances. The connection with MJK: she worked in a brothel in west end (Whiteleys' shop was in the west end) and the fact that Mary didn't like the man she accompanied to Paris, I think they may be a possible connection, it may be worth investigating.
Burlington Arcade, a shopping arcade, may have looked respectable for the posh shopper, but on the top floors of these shops, prostitution was rife.

I wonder what you lot think about this

[lynn cates]

interesting

Hello Natasha. Welcome to the boards.

Sounds interesting and worth investigation.

Cheers.
LC

[Natasha]

Hi Lynn

Thank You

Hopefully there are some records of Victorian shop girls around

There has got to be some record of some kind

Maybe the infirmary records, since MJK s lungs had some adhesion's. I know the Cardiff Infirmary records are no where to be found (isn't that a little weird)

Maybe the infirmary records in Ireland, Scotland or England it's a long shot especially since MJK's name is a bit dubious

[Sally]

Hi Lynn

Thank You

Hopefully there are some records of Victorian shop girls around

There has got to be some record of some kind

Maybe the infirmary records, since MJK s lungs had some adhesion's. I know the Cardiff Infirmary records are no where to be found (isn't that a little weird)

Maybe the infirmary records in Ireland, Scotland or England it's a long shot especially since MJK's name is a bit dubious

Hi Natasha,

Infirmary and workhouse records might be worth a try. Records for London are now largely digitised where they survive and are available to view on Ancestry if you have a subscription.

Outside of the capital, searching suriviving records would entail inspecting them in person. Either way, it's a time-consuming affair - particularly since many ledgers weren't indexed.

Survival of records is hit and miss, but you never know

Good luck with it.

[Sally]

Btw Natasha,

I meant to say, if you're looking for records from Kelly's earlier time in London, a good place to start would be in either Camden or Westminster as tradition may place her in the Cleveland Street area.

[Natasha]

Hi Sally

Thank you

It is like looking for a needle in a hay stack!

The fact that we don't know for sure what her name was, is really annoying

Mary Kelly was too popular a name and that using what information available about her has proved unsuccessful

What about missing persons reports in the UK an Ireland? How do you think the police recorded those back then?

[MrBarnett]

Hi Natasha,

A little while ago I found an entry for a Mary Kelly, prostitute on the 1881 census of Whitechapel infirmary. The age didn't quite tie in to the reported age of the MJK who perished in Miller's Court, but there was an intriguing little coincidence that left me wondering. One of the other inmates was an Emma Davis, widow. Now given that Kelly was supposedly the widow of a man named Davis and she was known to some as 'fair Emma' I thought that a little intriguing.

As Sally has mentioned, a subscription to Ancestry or FindMyPast would give you access to such records and provide hours of innocent fun .

Regards,

MrB.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha,

A little while ago I found an entry for a Mary Kelly, prostitute on the 1881 census of Whitechapel infirmary. The age didn't quite tie in to the reported age of the MJK who perished in Miller's Court, but there was an intriguing little coincidence that left me wondering. One of the other inmates was an Emma Davis, widow. Now given that Kelly was supposedly the widow of a man named Davis and she was known to some as 'fair Emma' I thought that a little intriguing.

As Sally has mentioned, a subscription to Ancestry or FindMyPast would give you access to such records and provide hours of innocent fun .

Regards,

MrB.

Hi Mr B

Now there could be something there regarding the Emma Davis

I do occasionally look on ancestry, and have looked up a few names, including a Henry Kille, a Scottish Mary and a scholar, since I read on here that was what was described of Mary

Will keep looking though!

[MayBea]

Fiona Kendall, (I think she is related to MCcarthy, said in 2008 speaking of MJK 'she also displayed a framed photograph of her noted ancestor'.

Yes, Natasha. Fiona would be John McCarthy's granddaghter from his son, Steve.

The "noted ancestor" would be her noted ancestor, John McCarthy, himself.

P.S. There was a book called The Store with a subplot of Jack and, I believe, Mary working at Harrods.

[Garry Wroe]

A little while ago I found an entry for a Mary Kelly, prostitute on the 1881 census of Whitechapel infirmary. The age didn't quite tie in to the reported age of the MJK who perished in Miller's Court, but there was an intriguing little coincidence that left me wondering.

I'm unsure as to the age of your Mary Kelly, Mr B, but I've long suspected that the real Kelly was a good deal older than is presently believed, possibly five or ten years older if the newspaper interviews with Mary Cox may be viewed as reliable. There again, I think it likely that Kelly promulgated a largely fictitious account of her antecedents, even to the extent that she lived in the East End under a pseudonym. If so, piecing together the real existence of the woman murdered in Miller's Court will prove all but impossible.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Garry,

The MK in question was, if I remember correctly, in her early 20s in 1881.
I'll see if I can find the record again and confirm the age.

MrB

[Sally]

Hi Garry,

The MK in question was, if I remember correctly, in her early 20s in 1881.
I'll see if I can find the record again and confirm the age.

MrB

Hi Mr B,

Is this her?

Admitted Wednesday March 16th 1881,

Name: Mary Kelly
Age: 23
Where Admitted From: Castle Alley [no number]
Married/Single: Single
Calling: Prostitute
Cause of Admission: Syphillis
Religion: C of E
Settlement: 1 week
Discharge 25.04.1881

She's no. 9327 in the Whitechapel Infirmary Admission/Discharge Register for 1879-81 if you want to have a look.

A census entry would tell us where she came from.

[Garry Wroe]

Well that certainly accords with the press account in which Cox stated her belief that Kelly was in her thirties at the time of her death, MrB. For me, however, the fact that not a single family member, former neighbour, childhood friend, school teacher, priest, policeman or employer recognized their 'Mary' from the name, description and biographical details circulated by the police and press at the time of the Miller's Court murder is strongly suggestive that Kelly's antecedental claims were largely fictitious. I don't believe that her real name was Mary Kelly, and nor do I accept that her family was relatively well off. I'm open-minded with regard to the Davi(e)s marriage, but believe it more than likely that soldier Henry was a fancy man rather than her brother. Thus I remain convinced that any attempt to identify the correct 'Mary Kelly' via the various archives is destined for failure. For my money the Davi(e)s marriage represents the most encouraging avenue of exploration, but even then I consider it unlikely that we'll ever establish the true identity of the woman killed in Miller's Court.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Sally,

Looks very much like her. When the kids get off the computer I'll log on to my FindMyPast account and check it out. Probably nothing to it, but the Emma Davies coincidence was intriguing. As was the fact that the most likely cause of Mr Davies' death was as a result of a boiler explosion. (Not in a Carmarthenshire mine, sadly, or I really would have got excited!).

MrB

[Sally]

Hi Sally,
hypo
Looks very much like her. When the kids get off the computer I'll log on to my FindMyPast account and check it out. Probably nothing to it, but the Emma Davies coincidence was intriguing. As was the fact that the most likely cause of Mr Davies' death was as a result of a boiler explosion. (Not in a Carmarthenshire mine, sadly, or I really would have got excited!).

MrB

Yes, Emma Davies, 31, widow of William, Lamp Lighter, according to the infirmary records [admitted March 22nd] She was suffering from Gonorrhea, so almost certainly a prostitute as well.

Her recorded address in the admission register is 18 Thrawl Street.

This Mary Kelly would've been born in around 1858 - not so much of a stretch for a woman knocking a few years off her actual age [hypothetically]