What body mechanics did Jack the Ripper employ while deconstructing Mary Kelly?

[GUT]

G'day Mark

The consensus regarding the mutilation of Kelly was different. It didn't have the anatomical precision.

To me and surgeons I've spoken to the removal of the heart and breasts show as much knowledge as in any of the other murders.

[markmorey5]

I gave two of the surgeons the full medical report of Mary Kelly (we are lucky that one of the two reports was located relatively recently), and they offered the theory that once the abdominal cavity had been systematically emptied, removing the heart was no obstacle for a vet or even someone used to slaughtering animals. So this is the comment 'lacking anatomical precision'. I couldn't do it and you couldn't do it, but someone with basic knowledge and experience of anatomy could.

I'm not a surgeon but the comment they gave me about the empty cavity leads me to believe that there was access to the heart from beneath although the lungs are partly in the way (as they are with many animals). I know more about the anatomy of breasts from my job in pathology, and I do know that it isn't hard to slice the tissue, blood vessles and ducts. It's difficult if you want the patient to live, but not so difficult in the Mary Kelly scenario.

My doctors were aware of the circumstances of the victims and were particularly impressed with the Eddowes dissection in poor light with the time constraint.

[caz]

Maria Harvey left 2 dirty men's shirts, a boy's shirt, a black overcoat, a black crepe bonnet, a little girl's white petticoat and a pawn ticket for a grey shawl. The black crepe bonnet seems to be the bonnet which was burned. I know that contemporary newspaper reports had Kelly's clothes folded on a chair but I don't know the whereabouts of Harvey's clothing.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for this. Could you help me and Jon (Wickerman) out by locating one such report for us? I know that 'folded' seems to have evolved into 'folded neatly' somewhere along the line, but I'm still wondering who reported originally that her clothes were folded, as opposed to left by the side of her bed "as though they had been taken off and laid down in the ordinary manner" - as described in the report Jon found.

Incidentally, is there any particular reason why you'd expect the killer to have shown either precision or skill in the injuries he inflicted on Kelly, if he had previously killed Chapman and/or Eddowes? Just because one has the ability to use precision in such circumstances, doesn't mean one has to use it, or would choose to use it, especially if one is seriously disturbed and feeling like a kid in a sweet shop.

Just a thought.

Love,

Caz
X

[Hunter]

The full medical report, which would have been Mr. Phillips' detailed post mortem report, has not survived.

[Abby Normal]

How many hands does this killer have?

What don't you understand? its a pretty simple explanation. And I would appreciate it if you would Knock off the bull **** responses.

[RockySullivan]

Does The Ripper appear as an organized killer by anyone else? He turned out Mary Kelly's insides and put them on the table. He made a horrible mess of her but the clothes are neatly folded. Was Kate Eddowes comb and tin and such placed neatly like in the michael caine show? I think the ripper looks like a neat freak, highly organized, obsessed with order and neatness. the level of violence displayed with mary kelly is perhaps is almost like the ripper let all of his urges for gory violence build up and his way of keeping it inside might have been excess habits toward order or cleanliness.

Also the mutilations seem organized to me, going in an taking a certain organ from the body..

[GUT]

G;day Caz

Incidentally, is there any particular reason why you'd expect the killer to have shown either precision or skill in the injuries he inflicted on Kelly, if he had previously killed Chapman and/or Eddowes? Just because one has the ability to use precision in such circumstances, doesn't mean one has to use it, or would choose to use it, especially if one is seriously disturbed and feeling like a kid in a sweet shop.

Only because some people want each murder to correspond cut for cut and nick for nick before they can accept one person did as little as two of the murders. The slightest change and it must be someone else.

[Wickerman]

Kelly had one or two cuts across her neck, deeper on the right side, which is consistent of a cut from right to left.

Are you offering this as your opinion?

[markmorey5]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for this. Could you help me and Jon (Wickerman) out by locating one such report for us? I know that 'folded' seems to have evolved into 'folded neatly' somewhere along the line, but I'm still wondering who reported originally that her clothes were folded, as opposed to left by the side of her bed "as though they had been taken off and laid down in the ordinary manner" - as described in the report Jon found.

Incidentally, is there any particular reason why you'd expect the killer to have shown either precision or skill in the injuries he inflicted on Kelly, if he had previously killed Chapman and/or Eddowes? Just because one has the ability to use precision in such circumstances, doesn't mean one has to use it, or would choose to use it, especially if one is seriously disturbed and feeling like a kid in a sweet shop.

Just a thought.

Love,

Caz
X

My relatives in London obtained soft copies of The London Standard which described the clothes as 'folded and placed on a chair near the bed' but didn't mention neatly. I used paraphrased reports from The Star (from Sugden's book) and from The London Standard for my novel.

I reported the comments by two surgeons who were impressed with the level of anatomical skill displayed in some circumstances and who commented on a lesser degreee of anatomical skill in one other circumstance.

For the relative depth of the cut to the throat I used a cleaned-up and enhanced version of the crime scene image. I noticed a bath under the bed which I incorporated into the story. The bed has apparently been moved a distance from the partition wall for this photo, and moved and tilted for the other photo. The bed is narrow and her knees are at the outer extremities of the mattress. Given she's about my height it's a single bed, so she could not have been moved terribly far across the mattress for mutilation. I also noticed a chequered pattern on the chemise or nightdress over her shoulder and a few personal belongings admidst the mess on the table. A bit too much detail, in fact. In any case 13 Millers Court is very small and once you put a frame of reference to the photos such as the relative length of a human thigh, you can put perspective to the dimensions in those crime scene photos.

[Sinead]

I’ve always thought the body appeared to have been ‘arranged’ following the mutilation. Blood spatter upon the wall must have occurred due to an initial arterial cut to the throat, so the position of Mary’s head seems orchestrated to provide a macabre, dramatic impact for those entering the scene, discovering the body.
It’s difficult to see how he could have remained unstained. No matter where he positioned himself- the small room, awkwardness of the bed, the extreme movement of flesh and lack of light lead me to wonder how he could possibly get away without being bloodstained to a degree. But perhaps that didn’t matter too much, if he lived rather close by?

Also, I'd just like to say hello, I'm new here. I'm very impressed by the depth, intelligence and serious investigative qualities of everyone.

[Hunter]

Hello, Sinead, and welcome to the message boards.

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Sinead and welcome to the boards.

I'm inclined to agree about MJK's body being arranged...thereagain I believe all the bodies (barring Liz Stride's of course) were to some extent or another posed, legs apart, knees raised, abdomen exposed... I think it was more than a practical necessity and perhaps a statement, part of what the killer got off on..."look at my work, this is what I do, and you can't stop me"

All the best

Dave

[GUT]

G'day Sinead and welcome hope you enjoy and benefit.

I personally don't think they were posed t seems to me. and may be wrong, that to do what was done that is basically how they would end up, on their backs legs apart, skirts pushed up, simply to access the part he wanted to rip.

[markmorey5]

Typically the women dressed with loose fitting clothing when out on the streets so that business could easily be conducted. So it would have been relatively easy for the killer to raise the victims skirts to gain access so that he could do what he did.

I read somewhere that one of the later, possible victims had tight fitting clothing and wasn't mutilated, and the killer didn't make any attempt to cut her clothing free.

With Mary Kelly it wasn't until I obtained a good, cleaned-up and enhanced version of the crime scene image did I realise how small the bed was (by sitting cross-legged on our spare, single bed and realising that was the size). So if Mary Kelly was moved from the murder place close to the wall towards the centre of the bed she wasn't moved very far; possibly several centimetres. Removing and handling so many organs and placing them around and about would have had a lot of blood dripping and some must have gotten onto the killer's clothing.

I remember reading a book (I don't know which one) about 30 years ago on the Ripper murders and the last one seemed particularly squalid purely by description (there were no photographs). It left a lasting impression on me because, perhaps, I had to visualise the scene in the sordid, little room. Now I know a lot more but whenever look at the enhanced photo in particular, it still has a strong impact.

[Wickerman]

With Mary Kelly it wasn't until I obtained a good, cleaned-up and enhanced version of the crime scene image did I realise how small the bed was (by sitting cross-legged on our spare, single bed and realising that was the size).

Interesting that you should think that.
I showed that photo to my wife and she thought it could have been a three-quarter bed. In Millers Court these rooms were let out to couples or families, a single bed is too small for two adults but a three-quarter bed is about 1ft wider than a single.

A double bed would have been a luxury, but the three-quarter was regarded as the poor-mans double.
It is more than likely what would have been provided by a landlord renting a room to couples.