police activity at MJK's funeral

[Chris Scott]

Here are some extracts from the asylum records for Evans/Fleming
These show that Henrietta Fleming was his mother and give his height as 6ft 7in and his weight on admission as 11st 8lbs (162 lbs)

[Chris Scott]

Here are copies of the three pages about Fleming/Evans

[Chris Scott]

And the transcription

James Evans
Asylum Records - Stone Asylum

LMA Reference: CLA/001/B/02/010

Book: City of London Lunatic Asylum
Case Book
Males
No. 10

Page: 63
Name: James Evans
Age: 37
Admitted: July 4th 1892
Previous Occupation: Dock labourer
Social condition: Single
Address of Friends: Henrietta Fleming, 261 Nile Street
No. in register: 1985
Religion: Church of England
Education: St Luke's - mother (this appears to refer to the line above - the entry about Henrietta Fleming)

State on Admission: He is stupid, dazed and in a confused state. Delusions of persecution.
Eyes: Brown, equal pupils
Expression: Vacant
Form of Head: Semilunar scar of left temple
Abdominal Viscera: N
Vascular System: N
Tongue: Moist and furred
Bruises &c.: Skin abrasion on front of left tibia
Respiratory organs: N
Pulse: 100
Epileptic: No
Suicidal: No
Dangerous: No
Skin: -

Phenomena of Disorder - Manner and period of attacks etc.
Signed W D Duncombe
He was sent from Bishopsgate Police Station on June 30th 1892 as an insane person. He had a delusion that he was being followed by people who wish to kill him' at the present time he thinks the same. Otherwise he is quiet, although he looks about him in a vacant manner.

Previous History:
Found wandering and sent to Infirmary of City of London Union.
His mother states there has been insanity in the family for 160 years
Previous attacks: First
Duration of Present Attack: Three days

Form of Insanity: Melancholia
Supposed cause: Drink? Initialled H P
Bodily Health: Good
Height: 6ft 7in
Weight: Weight: 11st 8lbs

July 7th: He is dazed, stupid and confused looking; expresses delusions of persecution, stating that men used formerly to pursue and follow him to kill him.
Takes food and sleeps well. C W Patterson?
July 11th 1892: Return to the Commissioners in Lunacy. Is insane and suffering from melancholia and has delusions of persecution, stating that men followed him with intent to do him grievous bodily harm. He appears dazed. Has fairly good health. The heart's action is rapid. The lung sounds are normal.
Ernest W White
July 25th: Suffers from melancholia, expresses many delusions and is dejected, downcast and melancholic.
August 7th: There is little or no change in his state of mind
Sept 1st: He has somewhat improved mentally and goes out daily to work
Sept 17th: Continues to improve mentally. Goes out daily to work.
Oct 1st: Has many delusions of persecution. Works well in the out of doors.
Oct 26th: No special change to report since last entry
Nov 20th: Has delusions of persecution. Works well. Health fair.
Dec 6th: No special mental or bodily change.
Feb 3 1893: Weight 11st 7lbs
Is cheerful and free from delusions. Works well. Good health. To be recommended for discharge as recorded.
Feb 13th 1893: Today whilst being examined previous to discharge, he was found to express many delusions stating that the writer's name was Isaacs, he was an old friend of the writer and frequently played at cocoanut shying with him in the Mile End Road and that he also repaired the writer's house; his discharge was at once cancelled and he was sent back to the wards.
April 1st: Weight 11st 6obs
He is sulky and morose; still adheres to his delusions about the writer shying cocoanuts with him in the East End of London; works well in the ward; has a foolish, facile expression. Resents being questioned much, Health good.
May 10th: His manner is peculiar, nervous and irritable. He talks to himself and his utterances are rambling. He expresses many delusions but works fairly well indoors.
May 24th: He is peculiar and excitable; has many delusions about persons. Resents being interfered with or questioned and becomes abusive on very little provocation. Health good.
June 12th 1893: Weight 11st 3lbs
Special report: "Is suffering from mania; is very incoherent. Has many delusions regarding persons. His expression is uncertain. In good health. The heart and lung sounds are normal.
July 14th: Weight 11 st 2lbs
Incoherent and excited. Has many delusions, saying the writer and he were old friends in Whitechapel etc. Works well indoors. Health good.
Oct 1st: Weight 11st 2lbs
Excited, rambling and incoherent. Has very many delusions. Works in ward. Health good.
Oct 30th: No mental change; health good.
Jan 1st 1894: Weight 11st 5lbs
Rambling and incoherent. Full of delusions. Health good.
1st April 1894: Weight 11st 10lbs
No mental change. He is very insane. Health good.

Entries continue on Page 97:
June 12th 1894: Special report: "Suffering from mania, very incoherent. Has many delusions, regarding person, his expression is uncertain, is in good health. The heart and lung sounds are normal."
July 1st: Weight 11st 1lb
Mentally rambling and incoherent. many delusions about persons. Works well in Dining Hall and Mess Room. Health good.
Oct 1st: Weight 11st
Rambling and incoherent. Works in D.H. and Mess room. Good health.
Jan 1st 1895: Weight 11st 5lbs
Works in the corridor, mess room and dining hall. He is rambling and incoherent, abusive. Good health.
Feb 14th 1895: Weight 11st 5lbs
He was today transferred to London County Asylum at Claybury as relieved.

[ceejay75]

And the transcription

James Evans
Asylum Records - Stone Asylum

LMA Reference: CLA/001/B/02/010

Book: City of London Lunatic Asylum
Case Book
Males
No. 10

Page: 63
Name: James Evans
Age: 37
Admitted: July 4th 1892
Previous Occupation: Dock labourer
Social condition: Single
Address of Friends: Henrietta Fleming, 261 Nile Street
No. in register: 1985
Religion: Church of England
Education: St Luke's - mother (this appears to refer to the line above - the entry about Henrietta Fleming)

State on Admission: He is stupid, dazed and in a confused state. Delusions of persecution.
Eyes: Brown, equal pupils
Expression: Vacant
Form of Head: Semilunar scar of left temple
Abdominal Viscera: N
Vascular System: N
Tongue: Moist and furred
Bruises &c.: Skin abrasion on front of left tibia
Respiratory organs: N
Pulse: 100
Epileptic: No
Suicidal: No
Dangerous: No
Skin: -

Phenomena of Disorder - Manner and period of attacks etc.
Signed W D Duncombe
He was sent from Bishopsgate Police Station on June 30th 1892 as an insane person. He had a delusion that he was being followed by people who wish to kill him' at the present time he thinks the same. Otherwise he is quiet, although he looks about him in a vacant manner.

Previous History:
Found wandering and sent to Infirmary of City of London Union.
His mother states there has been insanity in the family for 160 years
Previous attacks: First
Duration of Present Attack: Three days

Form of Insanity: Melancholia
Supposed cause: Drink? Initialled H P
Bodily Health: Good
Height: 6ft 7in
Weight: Weight: 11st 8lbs

July 7th: He is dazed, stupid and confused looking; expresses delusions of persecution, stating that men used formerly to pursue and follow him to kill him.
Takes food and sleeps well. C W Patterson?
July 11th 1892: Return to the Commissioners in Lunacy. Is insane and suffering from melancholia and has delusions of persecution, stating that men followed him with intent to do him grievous bodily harm. He appears dazed. Has fairly good health. The heart's action is rapid. The lung sounds are normal.
Ernest W White
July 25th: Suffers from melancholia, expresses many delusions and is dejected, downcast and melancholic.
August 7th: There is little or no change in his state of mind
Sept 1st: He has somewhat improved mentally and goes out daily to work
Sept 17th: Continues to improve mentally. Goes out daily to work.
Oct 1st: Has many delusions of persecution. Works well in the out of doors.
Oct 26th: No special change to report since last entry
Nov 20th: Has delusions of persecution. Works well. Health fair.
Dec 6th: No special mental or bodily change.
Feb 3 1893: Weight 11st 7lbs
Is cheerful and free from delusions. Works well. Good health. To be recommended for discharge as recorded.
Feb 13th 1893: Today whilst being examined previous to discharge, he was found to express many delusions stating that the writer's name was Isaacs, he was an old friend of the writer and frequently played at cocoanut shying with him in the Mile End Road and that he also repaired the writer's house; his discharge was at once cancelled and he was sent back to the wards.
April 1st: Weight 11st 6obs
He is sulky and morose; still adheres to his delusions about the writer shying cocoanuts with him in the East End of London; works well in the ward; has a foolish, facile expression. Resents being questioned much, Health good.
May 10th: His manner is peculiar, nervous and irritable. He talks to himself and his utterances are rambling. He expresses many delusions but works fairly well indoors.
May 24th: He is peculiar and excitable; has many delusions about persons. Resents being interfered with or questioned and becomes abusive on very little provocation. Health good.
June 12th 1893: Weight 11st 3lbs
Special report: "Is suffering from mania; is very incoherent. Has many delusions regarding persons. His expression is uncertain. In good health. The heart and lung sounds are normal.
July 14th: Weight 11 st 2lbs
Incoherent and excited. Has many delusions, saying the writer and he were old friends in Whitechapel etc. Works well indoors. Health good.
Oct 1st: Weight 11st 2lbs
Excited, rambling and incoherent. Has very many delusions. Works in ward. Health good.
Oct 30th: No mental change; health good.
Jan 1st 1894: Weight 11st 5lbs
Rambling and incoherent. Full of delusions. Health good.
1st April 1894: Weight 11st 10lbs
No mental change. He is very insane. Health good.

Entries continue on Page 97:
June 12th 1894: Special report: "Suffering from mania, very incoherent. Has many delusions, regarding person, his expression is uncertain, is in good health. The heart and lung sounds are normal."
July 1st: Weight 11st 1lb
Mentally rambling and incoherent. many delusions about persons. Works well in Dining Hall and Mess Room. Health good.
Oct 1st: Weight 11st
Rambling and incoherent. Works in D.H. and Mess room. Good health.
Jan 1st 1895: Weight 11st 5lbs
Works in the corridor, mess room and dining hall. He is rambling and incoherent, abusive. Good health.
Feb 14th 1895: Weight 11st 5lbs
He was today transferred to London County Asylum at Claybury as relieved.

Thank you so much for posting these records Chris I had tried and failed to post an enlarged image of the 6'7 in the records earlier today

[ceejay75]

Clive,

I think you misinterpret me a bit. I'm only calling him "tall man" as a reference for those who believe he is tall. I for one don't believe he is 6'7" tall.

I asked it before but there seems to be no takers...how tall were any of the mourners we know attended? If we assume the women were say 5'6" or smaller; then we can say the man is perhaps not much taller himself.

Clive, it is a guess whether Fleming attended the burial. It is a guess that Fleming is the Joe that MJK was fond of. It is a guess that Fleming was just as fond of MJK. The drawing does not provide proof for any of these things.

For all we know the tall man could be Barnett. We'd all expect him to be the one most upset. Barnett or any other man can still look tall if those around him are shorter. That's what we have here yet even then there are women that appear just as tall as him. What's easier to believe...a couple women about 5'6" or a couple women about 6'6"?

Cheers
DRoy

DRoy

Be as it may, the mind still boggles why some people can not or refuse to see a very tall man in that sketch. I can, I've shown the sketch to random people who have no inkling about whose funeral it is nor know anything about Jack the ripper and yet they agree the focal character is a tall man.

Now that Chris Scott has come up with the goods and posted the actual records and transcript to prove Joseph Fleming was 6'7 do you still believe that the tall man in the sketch is not Fleming?

Yes I agree I cannot prove that Fleming was actually there and it is guesswork and speculation about who was fond of who but surely knowing of Fleming's height and with the sketch in mind surely places him at her graveside.You have to be extremely fond of a person to be at a funeral to be paying your last respects. This wasn't open to all and sundry, only a select few and the 8 in the sketch were the rightful mourners. Hundreds more weren't granted this , they were cordoned off by the police

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The transcript is quite clear, it clearly states that Evans/Fleming was 6'7, that does not suggest 67'inches, the only digit one could argue about would be the possibility that the 7 was a 1.
His body weight of 11 stone-10lb, would be stout in 1888 for a 5'7'' male, I was that weight[ once] and at 5'10 in 1965 I was on the porky side.
One could suggest that his increasing insanity before being detained,most likely shed considerable weight of his frame, and if 6'7'' may have been once better nourished .
To be honest I doubt if either Fleming or Barnett are credible suspects for being Jack the Ripper, or even for that matter the killer of Kelly, but it would be beneficial to history if we could place them both as the two males at the service.
Regards Richard.

[DRoy]

Chris,

Thank you very much for posting that Fleming stuff, i've never seen it.

Clive,

Sorry, I just don't see it the same as you. Whether it is Fleming or not I can't say. In my opinion the "tall man" is not tall and is most likely Barnett. We at least know he was there which is more than we can say about Fleming. We also don't know whether Fleming is the Joe MJK was fond of. In terms of evidence, you've got absolutely nothing to support your opinion the "tall man" is Fleming. But if this helps you in any way to write your graphic novel then a good piece of fiction i'm sure it will be.

Richard,

I'm not disputing whether Fleming was 6'7" or whether he is MJK's ex. Those are for a different thread. I just don't think the "tall man" is that tall and therefore doesn't in my opinion match what the records say about him.

Cheers
DRoy

[richardnunweek]

Hi .
What is clear, is that apart from Droy/Clive/and yours truly , and a important contribution from Chris, there is precious little correspondence from anyone else.making this somewhat a non starter.
what is clear is a large man has been mentioned before in a past publication, and described as being the priest, which is confusing as there were 8 mourners, and if the man to the fore was indeed him, then where was the 8TH? and why was he not sketched wearing the attire of a priest?
It is also confusing as to how an ex [ Fleming] came about being in the coaches with the mourners, and engulfed himself into the service, paying respects via the onlookers yes, but on the official list less so.
It would be more likely that Barnett would have had the support of his brother Dan , who was also known to the deceased, but that would eliminate what Clive, and myself see in that sketch.
In summing up.
It is extremely likely that James Evans is Joe Fleming.
It is extremely likely that he was Kelly's ex
It is extremely likely that he was the ill-user of Mary, judging by his demeanour in the records.
It is not so likely, that he attended the funeral of Kelly as a official mourner.
It is not so likely that he would have been on friendly terms with his rival Barnett.
It is not so likely that the police sought out Kelly's ex's for interview, the investigation methods would not have been so precise , they were not seeking anyone but a killer of random prostitutes, and not any personalized killing, of course I accept that in Kelly's case initially they had a word with Barnett, when he appeared on the scene...but that most likely was all.
So really we are 'check mate'.
Regards Richard.

[Chris Scott]

Hi guys
If I remember rightly - and it is a LONG time since I have looked through some of this material - there were press reports which listed those who travelled in the mourners' coach(es) at Kelly's interment. If I remember rightly - and this is from memory! - it listed a number of women - six, I think, but I'll have to check - and it did specify that all the female mourners had been present at the inquest. It also specified two male mourners which it identified as Barnett and a representative of Kelly's landlord, McCarthy.
I will dig out the account and post it here.

[Chris Scott]

Here is one version of it
As only two males were specified and eight mourners mentioned there must have been, according to this, six female mourners:-

St Peter Port Star, Guernsey
22 November 1888

THE WHITECHAPEL MURDER.
FUNERAL OF THE VICTIM.
The remains of Mary Janet Kelly, who was murdered on the 9th of November in Miller's Court, Dorset Street, Spitalfields, were carried on Monday morning from Shoreditch mortuary to the Roman Catholic Cemetery at Leytonstone, for interment, amidst a scene of turbulent excitement scarcely ever paralleled even in the annals of that densely populated district where she met her death. On the afternoon of the murder the body of the unfortunate woman was conveyed to the mortuary attached to St. Leonard's Church, Shoreditch, and there it remained until Monday. Since the inquest a great amount of sympathy for the fate of the deceased has been created, but it remained for Mr. H. Wilton, the sexton attached to Shoreditch Church, to put sympathy into a practical form, and as no relatives have appeared he incurred the total cost of the funeral himself. Mr. Wilton has been sexton for over fifty years, and he provided the funeral as a mark of sympathy with the poor people of the neighbourhood. The body was enclosed in a polished elm and oak coffin with metal mounts. On the coffin plate was engraved the words:- "Marie Jeannette Kelly, died 9th November,1888, aged 25 years." Upon the coffin were two crowns of artificial flowers and a cross made up of heartsease. The coffin was carried in an open car drawn by two horses, and two coaches followed. An enormous crowd of people assembled at an early hour, completely blocking the thoroughfare, and a large number of police were engaged in keeping order. The bell of St. Leonard's began tolling at noon, and the signal appeared to draw all the residents in the neighbourhood together. There was an enormous preponderance of women in the crowd, scarcely any had any covering to their heads, and their tattered dresses indicated too surely that they belonged to the very class to which the murdered women belonged. The wreaths upon the coffin bore cards inscribed with remembrances from friends using certain public houses in common with the Deceased. As the coffin appeared, borne on the shoulders of four men, at the principal gate of the church, the crowd appeared to be moved greatly. Round the open car in which it was to be placed men and women struggled desperately to touch the coffin. Women, with faces streaming with tears, cried out "God forgive her!" and every man's head was bared in token of sympathy. the sight was quite remarkable, and the emotion natural and unconstrained. Two mourning coaches followed, one containing three and the other five persons. Joe Barnett was amongst them, with someone from M'Carthy, the landlord; and the others were women, who had given evidence at the inquest. After a tremendous struggle, the car, with the coffin fully exposed to view, set out at a very slow pace, all the crowd appearing to move off simultaneously in attendance. The traffic was blocked, of course, and the constables had great difficulty in obtaining free passage for the small procession through the mass of carts and vans and tramcars which blocked the road. the distance from Shoreditch Church to the Cemetery at Leytonstone by road is about six miles, and the route traversed was Hackney Road, Cambridge Heath, Whitechapel Road and the Stratford. In the Whitechapel Road the crowd on each side of the road were very great, and there was a considerable amount of emotion manifested. The appearance of the roadway throughout the whole journey was remarkable, owing to the hundreds of men and women who escorted the coffin on each side, and who had to keep up a sharp trot in many places. But the crowd rapidly thinned away when, getting into the suburbs, the car and coaches broke into a trot. Still the number of those who kept up was sufficient to spread the news in advance, and everywhere people stood in groups, or crowded windows to see the cortege pass. The cemetery was reached at two o'clock. The Rev. Father Columban, O.S.F., with two acolytes, and a cross bearer, met the body at the door of the little chapel of St Patrick, and the coffin was carried at once to a grave in the north eastern corner. Barnett and the poor women who had accompanied the funeral knelt on the cold clay by the side of the grave, while the service was read by Father Columban. The coffin was incensed, lowered, and then sprinkled with holy water, and the simple ceremony ended. The floral ornaments were afterwards raised to be placed upon the grave, and the filling up was completed in a few moments, and was watched by a small crowd of people. There was a very large concourse of people outside the gates, who were refused admission until after the funeral was over.

[Chris Scott]

Females who gave evidence at the inquest of Mary Kelly

1) Mary Ann Cox
2) Elizabeth Prater
3) Caroline Maxwell
4) Sarah Lewis
5) Julia Venturney
6) Maria Harvey

[Chris Scott]

Of course, logically, there is one other possibility. The press account says that the 8 mourners - 2 men and 6 women - went to the funeral in coaches behind the hearse. Presumably, they all attended the church part of the service. However the article implies that of the mourners only Barnett and the 6 women went to the graveside. However, there is one other male who would have been at the graveside, namely the priest, Father Columban. So maybe the sketch shows Barnett, Columban and the 6 women mourners. Of course, we have no way of knowing the height of the priest but does anyone know his age at the time of Kelly's funeral?

[Chris Scott]

It seems possible that the priest in question emigrated to Canada some eight and a half years after Kelly's interment.

Depature from: Liverpool
Date: 4 March 1897
Ship: Laurentian
Passenger name: Rev. Father Columban
Destination: Halifax, Canada

[The Good Michael]

It is extremely likely that he was the ill-user of Mary, judging by his demeanour in the records.

Alleged ill-user.

Mike

[DRoy]

Chris,

Many thanks!

So someone from McCarthy's might mean Bowyer or McCarthy's son? If it was McCarthy himself you'd assume they would have identified him.

Cheers
DRoy