police activity at MJK's funeral

[DRoy]

To all,

Based on those that are known to have attended the funeral, what can we say about their height? I know i've read descriptions before but can't remember what the descriptions or heights were.

What is the average height of a Victorian woman anyway? That would give us an idea what we're talking about

Cheers
DRoy

[ceejay75]

Clive,

He looks tall because those around him are shorter and or further away. I agree that he seems tall, however when you look at distance (the women on the left, the man behind him and the first woman on the right) it is apparent he isn't that tall.

It looks like the artist wanted to show the tall man for a reason as he does appear to be the most "animated". Everyone else is standing there but he seems to be doing something.

You yourself admit it would be difficult to get everything precise, so why why did the artist get the woman wrong and the tall man right? That logic doesn't make for a good argument.

I do however wish you the best of luck with your graphic novel, I really should have said that before.

Cheers
DRoy

DRoy,

That is indeed the point I maketh! The fellow taking centre stage here does look tall which I think is deliberate and also the reason why the artist chose to draw the tallest mourner at the service. The artist could have sketched any of the mourners yet he chose this person for a reason and because he obviously stood out with his height. It was a sketch for a newspaper after all and the more less contemporay the sketch the more likely it will be printed. The artist could have drawn several funeral sketches and all would have appeared similiar but this one is out of the ordinary for the obvious reason.

I do agree with you, that in this sketch some of the women appear of equal height but there is no doubting that this man does indeed look tall. The artist didn't get everything precise. The levels do look all over the place. I could argue that the women could be standing on boxes with their garb covering them.

I am satisfied that the artist chose to draw this man for a specific reason and his height. Why was this man drawn and not the other (who we believe to be Joseph Barnett) behind him? Surely for a press release , a sketch of the recent boyfriend would have been more relevant so why this man instead?

If only we could discover the original sketches , it could give us more of a picture (excuse the pun) especially if drawn close up or from another angle? Lots of wishful thinking of course

Should the height of this man in the sketch ever be accepted and confirmed then this man must surely be no other than the intriguing Joseph Fleming / James Evans

Thank you very much for wishing me luck with my graphic novel. I hope it shall make for most interesting reading indeed!

Regards,
Clive

[ceejay75]

If that's the one, then this is a better copy of it plus another outside Shoreditch Church.

[ATTACH]15208[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]15209[/ATTACH]

Rob

Thank you very much Rob. That is a much clearer and better copy of the funeral/graveside with mourners

as for the second outside Shoreditch Church that is a new one for me. I appreciate you posting it as I have not seen that before

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If we take the sketch at face value, we certainly have a man that appears to be rather large apparently paying respects to the deceased.
The sketch was drawn in November 1888, a few years prior to one James Evans, alias Joseph Fleming being certified insane.
That inmate was described as 6'7'', and almost certainly appears to have been Mary Kelly's ex, so is it not a 'major' coincidence if he was not present at the service.?
One should ask, why the large man was standing as the official male mourner , when it was Barnett who had lived with her for some 19 months..unless the latter had initially stood there.
We should not forget, that it is believed that Fleming and Kelly were close, and maybe we have overestimated Barnett's relationship with Mary, they may have simply ''shacked up'' for convenience, and at the service he allowed this apparent rival first claim to mourn.
If placing credence to the alleged 'Grave Spitting''. we must ask the relevant question, who would be the most likely to stop behind after the others drifted off, before the grave was filled, and the crowd outside the church were allowed in. was it the most recent Ex, or the Joe, that Kelly said she was very fond of, and may have taken centre stage at the service.?
I should add, that until we have more physical details about the priest, this theory is only a case of inspired speculation.
Regards Richard.

[ceejay75]

Hi,
If we take the sketch at face value, we certainly have a man that appears to be rather large apparently paying respects to the deceased.
The sketch was drawn in November 1888, a few years prior to one James Evans, alias Joseph Fleming being certified insane.
That inmate was described as 6'7'', and almost certainly appears to have been Mary Kelly's ex, so is it not a 'major' coincidence if he was not present at the service.?
One should ask, why the large man was standing as the official male mourner , when it was Barnett who had lived with her for some 19 months..unless the latter had initially stood there.
We should not forget, that it is believed that Fleming and Kelly were close, and maybe we have overestimated Barnett's relationship with Mary, they may have simply ''shacked up'' for convenience, and at the service he allowed this apparent rival first claim to mourn.
If placing credence to the alleged 'Grave Spitting''. we must ask the relevant question, who would be the most likely to stop behind after the others drifted off, before the grave was filled, and the crowd outside the church were allowed in. was it the most recent Ex, or the Joe, that Kelly said she was very fond of, and may have taken centre stage at the service.?
I should add, that until we have more physical details about the priest, this theory is only a case of inspired speculation.
Regards Richard.

hello Richard

Of course I completely and utterly agree with you and I have even broached why the chief mourner is such in the sketch myself. This man was obviously picked for his statue. The artist could have picked any one from eight mourners but he picks this man for obvious reasons

Yes as Droy and others may well point out fellow mourners appear of equal height but there is simply no denying that this man is sketched as he was in life , a very large man indeed.

What I find mystifying is that there is a reluctance amongst some to accept a man could be 6'7 and that it is a mistaken measurement. What poppycock. The inmate records clearly state in black and white a 6'7 measurement. It has been argued that the 6'7 is 67 inches and making James Evans aka Joseph Fleming 5'7. People find this more acceptable. Why the reluctance to believe that an inmate and Fleming himself was 6'7? It is surely not hard to believe that in a city the size of London back in 1888 there were numerous although not common men who reached this height and maybe even bigger. It is not unconceivable at all.

I'd like to ask the doubers if they are still sure after watching this clip from Robert Downey jr's Sherlock Holmes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxIiww1bAMQ

'Dredger' in this clip isn't too far removed from how I believe Fleming looked. The actor, Robert Maillet may be 5 inches taller at 7' but you can get a good idea of how imposing this former lover of Mary Kelly must of been.

And yes why was Fleming standing as the official chief mourner? As I have suggested myself, surely the most recent lover and Joseph Barnett should have been afforded this mantle. But Barnett is nowhere near as impressive a sketch as Fleming is. Newspapers are about sensationalism, the more striking the photo or in this case the sketch the more likely it will be printed.

[ceejay75]

Hi,
If we take the sketch at face value, we certainly have a man that appears to be rather large apparently paying respects to the deceased.
The sketch was drawn in November 1888, a few years prior to one James Evans, alias Joseph Fleming being certified insane.
That inmate was described as 6'7'', and almost certainly appears to have been Mary Kelly's ex, so is it not a 'major' coincidence if he was not present at the service.?
One should ask, why the large man was standing as the official male mourner , when it was Barnett who had lived with her for some 19 months..unless the latter had initially stood there.
We should not forget, that it is believed that Fleming and Kelly were close, and maybe we have overestimated Barnett's relationship with Mary, they may have simply ''shacked up'' for convenience, and at the service he allowed this apparent rival first claim to mourn.
If placing credence to the alleged 'Grave Spitting''. we must ask the relevant question, who would be the most likely to stop behind after the others drifted off, before the grave was filled, and the crowd outside the church were allowed in. was it the most recent Ex, or the Joe, that Kelly said she was very fond of, and may have taken centre stage at the service.?
I should add, that until we have more physical details about the priest, this theory is only a case of inspired speculation.
Regards Richard.

good points with the overestimation of Barnett's relationship with Mary but I'm sure Joseph B must have allowed Fleming to mourn first through gritted teeth. Or more intriguingly Barnett actually wanted to be the one left to stop behind and pay his respects last so he could commit the alleged 'Grave Spit'

Back to the police and I am sure they must have identified all the mourners in the sketch. Fleming would of as expected would of been later traced and interviewed as he had been a man who was very close to the victim and had physically abused her. Standard police procedure surely but no such records exist of this enquiry happening. I have no doubt he was investigated, he must of been investigated but alas another mysterious or lost entry in the Ripper file

[richardnunweek]

Hello Clive,
You have a good point about the possible reasoning for Barnett occupying the rear position..it would be a pointer to him, to have indeed been the grave spitter.
According to Farson's source there was no mention of the man who spat.. as having been of exceptional height.so again that would eliminate Fleming of the act.
Victorian men/women of very short statue, or disfigured, or extremely tall, in many cases were considered freaks, and many would have seen that as a form of insanity...maybe that contributed in Fleming being sectioned?
Regards Richard.

[DRoy]

Clive,

I agree that the tall man is the focal person in the drawing, I just can't accept it at this point as meaning it is because the guy was really tall.

As mentioned, he appears to be the only one that is "animated". He is the only one caught in movement as everyone else is just standing there. That's why I believe he's the focal person.

Perhaps he put on some sort of show by being really upset and therefore pacing around. Maybe he was sobbing uncontrollably. All supposition. In my opinion that would make more sense than trying to draw a tall man while then also drawing tall women as well.

Cheers
DRoy

[ceejay75]

Clive,

I agree that the tall man is the focal person in the drawing, I just can't accept it at this point as meaning it is because the guy was really tall.

As mentioned, he appears to be the only one that is "animated". He is the only one caught in movement as everyone else is just standing there. That's why I believe he's the focal person.

Perhaps he put on some sort of show by being really upset and therefore pacing around. Maybe he was sobbing uncontrollably. All supposition. In my opinion that would make more sense than trying to draw a tall man while then also drawing tall women as well.

Cheers
DRoy

Droy,

It's good to hear you agree that tall man does appear tall and is the focal person in the drawing. I just struggle to find how some people can not see that this fellow does not appear a large man in the sketch. Looks blatantly obvious to me despite some of the fellow mourners appearing of equal height.

I agree that some of the ladies in this sketch appear as tall as him but there can simply be no denying that this guy does look unusually big in the sketch. Whether he was in life well that is a matter of debate but I believe that the artist drew him as he intended to look and his big statue. Others like yourself may disagree.

Now if it was only this sketch to go on there would be little else to say about it, I would say that this man does look big in the sketch and the women look as tall as him too. Period. So why am I adamant that this man was taller than all those at the service?

Well as we know Fleming, his alias James Evans was certified insane and as an inmate was registered as being 6'7. Ultimately we know he was Mary Kelly's former lover and one she was very fond of, she would have wanted him at her funeral. So Fleming has reason to be in this sketch.

The likelihood of another man of similiar height being at her graveside in this private ceremony on which this sketch is based on is very, very slim indeed unless she had a penchant for very tall men as well as boyfriend's called Joseph! No , this man can can only be Fleming despite the reference to a priest. This man looks like a mourner than a man who conducted the service

There is no doubt in my mind that the man taking central stage in this sketch is indeed Joseph Fleming which is why at 6'7 he does look very big in this sketch. Yes I will say again that the women appear of equal height but it would be incredulous that they are also 6'7 themselves. This was no Tall People of London social gathering to say goodbye to Mary Kelly, a 'tall' person herself!

[Wickerman]

... It has been argued that the 6'7 is 67 inches and making James Evans aka Joseph Fleming 5'7. People find this more acceptable.

A clue should lie in the consistency of the records themselves. Are records of other inmates typically given in inches, or ft and in?

It is perhaps more likely the 6 is a mistake for a 5.

.

[ceejay75]

A clue should lie in the consistency of the records themselves. Are records of other inmates typically given in inches, or ft and in?

It is perhaps more likely the 6 is a mistake for a 5.

.

hello Wickerman

Yes a good point about consistency in records but alas how this 6ft 7 can can be mistaken for a 5 , as it is so abudantly and crystal clear is beyond me.

[IMG]joeflemingheight.jpg[/IMG]

oops that didn't work!

[ceejay75]

hello Wickerman

Yes a good point about consistency in records but alas how this 6ft 7 can can be mistaken for a 5 , as it is so abudantly and crystal clear is beyond me.

[IMG]joeflemingheight.jpg[/IMG]

oops that didn't work!

first image post to Casebook.org is obviously a FAIL

[DRoy]

Clive,

I think you misinterpret me a bit. I'm only calling him "tall man" as a reference for those who believe he is tall. I for one don't believe he is 6'7" tall.

I asked it before but there seems to be no takers...how tall were any of the mourners we know attended? If we assume the women were say 5'6" or smaller; then we can say the man is perhaps not much taller himself.

Clive, it is a guess whether Fleming attended the burial. It is a guess that Fleming is the Joe that MJK was fond of. It is a guess that Fleming was just as fond of MJK. The drawing does not provide proof for any of these things.

For all we know the tall man could be Barnett. We'd all expect him to be the one most upset. Barnett or any other man can still look tall if those around him are shorter. That's what we have here yet even then there are women that appear just as tall as him. What's easier to believe...a couple women about 5'6" or a couple women about 6'6"?

Cheers
DRoy

[curious]

What's easier to believe...a couple women about 5'6" or a couple women about 6'6"?

Cheers
DRoy

Perhaps an artist that isn't great with perspective?

curious

[DRoy]

Curious,

Yes that too is another reason, couldn't agree more!

Cheers
DRoy