police activity at MJK's funeral

[ceejay75]

Hi Ceejay75,
I have been referring to the height depicted in that sketch on Casebook for years, and at last I have found someone who actually agrees with that observation..
Many of the good folk on this site suggest it is a illusion, but that is not an assumption that I agree with, and it seems that I am finally not alone.
If indeed the tall person is Fleming , and this is the person certified insane , under the alias James Evans, then the alleged grave spitting incident is not without possibility.?
But that is taboo amongst the majority of us..I stand alone.
Regards Richard.

Hello Richard

Yes you do not stand alone in this at all, the height depicted in this sketch and nor the grave spitting incident. I certainly believe that the tall man is indeed Fleming and not an illusion at all. The artist has rendered one of the men present at the graveside slightly crouching with right leg bent yet the man behind him appears of equal height. Had the tall man stood straight up he would have been a foot taller than the man behind him. Barnett was 5'7 , Fleming 6'7.

I struggle to see how a above average tall man can not be seen in this sketch. It looks plainly obvious to me and it certainly doesn't appear an illusion

As for the grave spitting incident I also find myself in minority. I believe this actually could have happened. If we assume that both men present were indeed Fleming and Barnett , the former lovers of Mary Kelly and who perhaps were aware of each other and battling for her affections then you could cut the atmosphere with ahem .. a knife. It may well be 125 years ago this year but I'm sure even today if you had two former boyfriends at a funeral of a girlfriend there would be some degree of tension. Refering to the sketch if we believe the tall man to be Fleming , well it seems here he is stealing the moment from under Barnett. How would of Barnett felt seeing Mary's ex take centre stage? He would certainly have felt all the more bitter seeing this sketch in the newspaper and feeling like part of the background. At that moment in time at the funeral and after he thought himself alone maybe he found it too hard to suppress his anger and therefore spit in her grave. It does sound believable to me.

You may be pleased to know that both men in the sketch will actually be Barnett and Fleming and the subsequent grave spitting incident WILL be showing up in my graphic novel too.

much regards
Clive/ceejay75

[Chris Scott]

"So who's going to post that picture then?"

Is this the one?

[Rob Clack]

If that's the one, then this is a better copy of it plus another outside Shoreditch Church.





Rob

[Chris Scott]

Thanks Rob :-)

[DRoy]

The woman that is bent over on the right side of the drawing appears to be just as tall as the "tall" man.

DRoy

[richardnunweek]

Hello Clive,
I agree entirely with your thoughts, and I wish you all the very best with your graphic novel.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Droy,
I guess your negative response , comes under the illusion category .
If one note the ground levels are not exact,
For example.
I am 5'10'', my wife is 5'4'', yet if we stand on a uneven platform she can look nearly as tall as me.
I still maintain that the man to the front in that sketch and the man to the rear, who are standing on a level playing field, show a great difference in height and built.
But that is just my[and now Clive's ] opinion.
I will however like to discover where the description ''A giant of a man'' is from. does any one know off hand?
It was a reference to the priest who conducted the service, and it lies buried amongst one and a half large bookcases, of my ripper library.
However if the man in discussion was the priest , why was he not dressed accordingly?.
I will therefore stick to the Fleming theory.
Regards Richard.

[DRoy]

Richard,

I didn't mean it as a negative response. It was just my observation.

When I first saw the drawing I too thought the man was way taller than anyone else. However, after noticing the other woman bent over, she too seemed to be just as tall as the tall man and would appear to be quite a bit taller than the other spectators.

I'm not pro or con Fleming nor am I pro or con Fleming being 6'7". I would however say that a drawing would be quite difficult to accept as conclusive evidence whether it's the Fleming or not.

Cheers
DRoy

[richardnunweek]

Hi Droy,
Sorry wrong choice of words 'Negative response'.. clearly you were stating an observation, brought upon by the apparent height of a mourner, on the right of the men.
I would suggest that the sketch was drawn as seen by the artist, and as I mentioned in the other post, a false illusion of her height can be explained by the different variant of ground level, where she was standing.
Regards Richard.

[DRoy]

Richard,

Different variant of ground level? I'll go along with that...but only to a point.

From the artists standpoint, the closer the mourners are, the larger or taller they'd appear to be. Then we'd have to factor in as you suggest, different variant of ground level, or even a slant or hill.

Look at their feet or where their dresses end. The lady on the far right who is hunched over is further away than the tall man from the artist yet the same height. She doesn't appear to be standing on any sort of hill or slant.

She is either 7'6" or he isn't 6'7". Although I suppose the tall man could be standing in a pit or the woman standing on an ant hill.

In my opinion, the artist drew what he saw but also didn't draw to precise measurements a/o scope.

Cheers
DRoy

[ceejay75]

Hello Clive,
I agree entirely with your thoughts, and I wish you all the very best with your graphic novel.
Regards Richard.

hello Richard

refreshing to meet and hear of a likeminded fellow member of Casebook. I do mirror your views and agree with the theories you have put forward.

Thank you very much for your best wishes regarding my graphic novel. Still in development at the moment and will be writing up my notes in the forseeable. I shall certainly be posting a few 'rushes' from time to time.

Re my original thread. Pretty much convinced the chief detectives were at the funeral now as I'd hate to place them there and then find out that they weren't. My book will be based on and adhere to ALL the facts. Of course I will have to speculate with certain events

best wishes
Clive

[ceejay75]

Richard,

Different variant of ground level? I'll go along with that...but only to a point.

From the artists standpoint, the closer the mourners are, the larger or taller they'd appear to be. Then we'd have to factor in as you suggest, different variant of ground level, or even a slant or hill.

Look at their feet or where their dresses end. The lady on the far right who is hunched over is further away than the tall man from the artist yet the same height. She doesn't appear to be standing on any sort of hill or slant.

She is either 7'6" or he isn't 6'7". Although I suppose the tall man could be standing in a pit or the woman standing on an ant hill.

In my opinion, the artist drew what he saw but also didn't draw to precise measurements a/o scope.

Cheers
DRoy

Droy

without a doubt the artist drew what he saw. The sketch portrays a tall man, its pretty evident from his posture. He is not standing up fully and without that bent leg of his he would have towered over the rest of the mourners.

as an artist myself this kind of sketch is hard to realise with precise measurements. If I drew a similar drawing it is very doubtful I would get all the correct heights especially from this distance away and you have to speculate. I find it hard to fathom however that most can not see a tall man in this sketch. It's blindingly obvious to me. The artist has obviously drawed our attention to the fact that this man was a taller than average man indeed. yes i see what you mean that some of the lady mourners may appear of equal height but that doesn't take anything away from the central figure in my mind, it is a tall man all over

[ceejay75]

Hi Droy,
I guess your negative response , comes under the illusion category .
If one note the ground levels are not exact,
For example.
I am 5'10'', my wife is 5'4'', yet if we stand on a uneven platform she can look nearly as tall as me.
I still maintain that the man to the front in that sketch and the man to the rear, who are standing on a level playing field, show a great difference in height and built.
But that is just my[and now Clive's ] opinion.
I will however like to discover where the description ''A giant of a man'' is from. does any one know off hand?
It was a reference to the priest who conducted the service, and it lies buried amongst one and a half large bookcases, of my ripper library.
However if the man in discussion was the priest , why was he not dressed accordingly?.
I will therefore stick to the Fleming theory.
Regards Richard.

Richard,

I have also heard of the "A giant of a man" and the reference to the priest who conducted the service.

If this giant was the priest then yes as you point out why wasn't he dressed accordingly?

The most telling point is the actual posture of the tall man in the sketch. It befits one similiar of a mourner. He is crouching slightly , maybe to throw flowers or earth on the coffin or just paying respect

I am quite sure that like you I believe this is to be Fleming

regards
Clive

[DRoy]

Clive,

He looks tall because those around him are shorter and or further away. I agree that he seems tall, however when you look at distance (the women on the left, the man behind him and the first woman on the right) it is apparent he isn't that tall.

It looks like the artist wanted to show the tall man for a reason as he does appear to be the most "animated". Everyone else is standing there but he seems to be doing something.

You yourself admit it would be difficult to get everything precise, so why why did the artist get the woman wrong and the tall man right? That logic doesn't make for a good argument.

I do however wish you the best of luck with your graphic novel, I really should have said that before.

Cheers
DRoy

[Bridewell]

Interesting sketch which I don't remember seeing before. Thanks for posting. Given what it is though, I struggle to see in it evidence of the height of the various people present, especially as there is no 'known' on which to base such a calculation.