The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

[erobitha]

They're not dead ends, they're routes pursued and eliminated. Keep at it, who knows what's out there? She is, if only we could pin it down.

I've decided I think actually hate whoever she was.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I've decided I think actually hate whoever she was.

Seems a bit neurotic. It's like a stranger on a train asking if you can solve their crossword. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the papers upsidedown from your perspective. Hate? Behave, it's just a lack of confirmation.

[erobitha]

Seems a bit neurotic. It's like a stranger on a train asking if you can solve their crossword. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the papers upsidedown from your perspective. Hate? Behave, it's just a lack of confirmation.

It was tongue in cheek and flipant. Going off now to do an upside down crossword.

[Scott Nelson]

Paul Williams provided quite a bit of background on Rees (among other possible connections) in "The Welshman Who Knew Mary Kelly" in Ripperologist no. 160, February/March 2018.

[rjpalmer]

I'm glad you wrote this, my first take was 'are we talking about two different Mr Rees here?', something did not quite jive. I thought I'd get back to it later. Yes, something is either garbled or there has been a misunderstanding by reporters.

Hi Wick.

The person who has delved the deepest into the Mrs Rees/Barbara Louise Hopkins mystery was author Paul Williams. He wrote a couple of articles about it and a podcast was made. It's a complex/sordid tale.

I looked into it at considerable length and the most reasonable explanation is that it was a case of mistaken identity and the young woman that Rees thought was Kelly must have been someone else, but the whole affair is still shrouded in considerable mystery and is well worth looking into for its own sake. It is still possible there maybe be some sort of tangential connection that could lead somewhere.

There's a long thread about it on Howard Brown's site, first started by AP Wolf, with contributions by Debra Arif, Robert Linford, Paul Williams, etc.

I recommend chasing down Paul Williams' article, if you haven't already.

[rjpalmer]

Paul Williams provided quite a bit of background on Rees (among other possible connections) in "The Welshman Who Knew Mary Kelly" in Ripperologist no. 160, February/March 2018.

Cheers, Scott. I just caught up with the rest of the thread, and see you beat me to the punch.

As you say, an article well worth reading.

[jmenges]

The podcasts mentioned above that Paul Williams did for us:

Dr John Morgan Hopkins

https://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=239

Mary Jane Rees

https://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=260

JM

[Wickerman]

Paul Williams provided quite a bit of background on Rees (among other possible connections) in "The Welshman Who Knew Mary Kelly" in Ripperologist no. 160, February/March 2018.

Thats the guy!, yes I knew of an article but couldn't think of the author's name. And yes, I see I do have No.160, thanks for the reminder.

By the way, have these issues stopped? (anybody know?), my last is No.166 from Mar. 2020.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick.

The person who has delved the deepest into the Mrs Rees/Barbara Louise Hopkins mystery was author Paul Williams. He wrote a couple of articles about it and a podcast was made. It's a complex/sordid tale.

I looked into it at considerable length and the most reasonable explanation is that it was a case of mistaken identity and the young woman that Rees thought was Kelly must have been someone else, but the whole affair is still shrouded in considerable mystery and is well worth looking into for its own sake. It is still possible there maybe be some sort of tangential connection that could lead somewhere.

There's a long thread about it on Howard Brown's site, first started by AP Wolf, with contributions by Debra Arif, Robert Linford, Paul Williams, etc.

I recommend chasing down Paul Williams' article, if you haven't already.

Thanks RJ, I am about to get into it.

Also, I appreciate the heads-up for the thread over at Howard's site, I can see I am going to be busy this weekend.....

[mpriestnall]

[QUOTE=Al Bundy's Eyes;n761979]

Hi,
The Coroner's Act can be found online, for a look at how it was or was not put into practice I'd recommend a read of David Barrats article found here: https://www.orsam.co.uk/thebiginquiry.htm

He's specifically referring to the Stride inquest, but there's lots of useful info there.

Thanks Al. Appreciate the info

I have a couple of observations to make about Barnett's testimony, regarding items included and not included. Looking at the other inquests for comparison might be useful for looking at the Kelly inquest.

[JeffHamm]

A few thoughts on the above:
1) Sweeney is also a common Irish surname. Mr Rees may have known her as Sweeney or mistook the commonness of the surname. The indication he said he knew her father would suggest as being unlikely
2) But it did unearth a peculiar find. A Mary (albeit listed as being on the young side) in 1871 and 1881as suggesting she would have been just 17 in 1888
3) What I found strange was the father was called John. There was an incident involving iron. He also had two sons, one called Henry and another called John
4) Weirdly Mary drops off the census in 1891 but John senior acquires a new wife "Magaret" who is just 22

In the end all just odd coincidences once again and no viable leads.

HI erobitha,

Hmmm, by 1891 he also seems to have "lost" a daughter born in 1871 who was named Mary (either Mary R in 1871, or Mary T in 1881), but now has a daughter named Polly of no middle initial, who was also born in 1871 (and cannot be the daughter of his new wife, who was only 2 at the time of Polly's birth). And of course, Polly Nichols was really Mary Ann Nichols, so it looks like Mary ? Sweeney is not Mary Jane Kelly of Dorset Street but coincidently end up going by names that can be somewhat associated with the first and last victim of the JtR series (I'm assuming, of course, that the Polly Sweeney in 1891 is the same person as the previous Mary ? Sweeney's).

Now, I suppose, she could be the Mary J that Mr. Ree's knew (outside chance here, as Mr. Rees does claim familiarity with his MJK's father, so I would presume wouldn't mistake Sweeney for Kelly), and she may have returned to her father's household after leaving London (where Mr. Ree's claims to have seen her), perhaps getting spooked when her namesake was murdered in 1888. I suppose we could spin a tale that given the association of the name "Sweeney" with "Sweeney Todd", we could suggest that Mr. Ree's "Mary" used the common name "Kelly" to avoid that association once she left her father's household, and Mr. Rees would know of her preference and used that when talking with the reporters. It would also fit with her changing her name upon the hypothesized return, to get away from the association with the JtR victim, but sort of falls down given she's going under the name "Polly", which is still associated with JtR via Nichols. So, unless Polly is some sort of common alternative name given to Mary's, that becomes a bit of a sticking point in my over active imagination.

Anyway, my free running associations aside, the important point really is that I think there's a good case for suggesting Mary R, Mary T, and Polly Sweeney are all the same person, ego, not the victim found in Dorset Street.

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

By the way, have these issues stopped? (anybody know?), my last is No.166 from Mar. 2020.

That's the last one I got as well. I guess it's just going to to be intermittent now.

[mpriestnall]

Coroner's Act 1887 can be found here btw.

[Debra A]

It might be worth a second look, though I do recall Deb's commenting on the Rees case several years ago, that it didn't lead anywhere, I just can't recall why.

I'm having trouble recalling myself
Basically, the story is about Abbi Kelly, daughter of a marine store dealer in Llanelly who was said to have worked for Dr Hopkins' and his daughter, Mary Jane Rees, an abortionist. Abbi worked for Hopkins as a servant at some point. Rees claimed to have seen her in London after she left home and that is how the rumour that she may be the murdered girl started, as far as I remember. However, Abbi Kelly had married someone named Muir and emigrated to the US, rather than she went to London and so the story seemed to end there because she is on the US census and passenger lists as Abbi Muir after 1888. She also had a sister named Julia. Paul Begg researched the story originally, many year ago.

[mpriestnall]

Part of Joseph Barnett's testimony at the inquest:
"I have seen the body, and I identify it by the ear and eyes, which are all that I can recognise".

https://photos.casebook.org/displayi...372&fullsize=1

I don't understand why JB couldn't use the remaining parts of MJK arms and legs to contribute to his identification of Kelly. Surely her limbs were as distinctive and recognisable to JB as her ear and eyes, after 1 year and 8 months of knowing Kelly?

What gives?