The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

[Wickerman]

OK, but it's the absent of these kind of details from Barnett I'm questioning. I'm saying her irish/welsh backstory is completely fake, and Barnett avoided the details of how she come to London because they, being recent and concrete in nature, were too easy for journalists etc to investigate and prove they were made up. Hence their omission.

Do you think Barnett may have omitted the details because they related to an illegal/immoral way of life for Kelly and would have reflected badly on her?

I'm not seeing the deception, Barnett is only answering questions put to him by the coroner, he isn't telling a story.

The question was: "After she left Cardiff, did she come direct to London?"

Barnett gave a direct answer - 'Yes, she was in a gay house in the west end".

He isn't being vague, he isn't avoiding any questions.

[Losmandris]

if there was something to be 'in on' I don't think Barnett was. Whoever MJK was I don't think she was the type of person to put up with people prying into her back story. She was clearly covering something up and I would take anything we have on her background with a serious pitch of salt. I agree that details for the last two years is probably as reliable as possible. As for the rest? Though I don't imagine there is some deep dark secret or cover up. It is more than likely she was keeping a low profile from the people who trafficked her to France.

Just to put it out there. Is it possible that Astrakan man is linked somehow to that period of her life?

[MrBarnett]

if there was something to be 'in on' I don't think Barnett was. Whoever MJK was I don't think she was the type of person to put up with people prying into her back story. She was clearly covering something up and I would take anything we have on her background with a serious pitch of salt. I agree that details for the last two years is probably as reliable as possible. As for the rest? Though I don't imagine there is some deep dark secret or cover up. It is more than likely she was keeping a low profile from the people who trafficked her to France.

Just to put it out there. Is it possible that Astrakan man is linked somehow to that period of her life?

If Mrs McCarthy is to be believed, Kelly didn’t keep a low profile from her former French employer in Knightsbridge. She called back at her premises to collect her belongings. And it would have been rather strange for the French lady to have handed over a box of costly dresses to a woman who had absconded from her or her associates. It makes more sense to me that Kelly proved hard to control and her West End/French employers passed her down the line to the Breezer’s Hill lot. The Ratcliff Highway brothel keepers were said to have contacts in the West End and on the Continent.

If Mrs Buki was telling the truth and Kelly did indeed have two (presumably front) teeth missing, you have to wonder when she lost them - and how. There are several examples of extreme violence being meted out to women working for the East End brothel keepers. In moving to Spitalfields Kelly may have been trying to keep a low profile from her previous employers in the Highway.

[Joshua Rogan]

That's a good point.

I believe Kelly come from a respectable London working class family, led a conventional life in service and then became estranged from her husband and or family. sometime between say 1885-1887. Something happened to her, perhaps got pregnant outside of marriage or acquired a STD, that caused this estrangement. She found herself out on the streets and ended up crossing paths with the Breezer Hill mob and then eventually Jack.

Star 12 Nov
"It appears from inquiries made at Carmarthen and Swansea, that after leaving the former place for the latter, Kelly, who was then only 17 years of age, entered the service of a Mrs. Rees, who stands committed to the next assizes on a charge of procuring abortion, and who is the daughter of a medical man formerly resident at Carmarthen."

[mpriestnall]

I'm not seeing the deception, Barnett is only answering questions put to him by the coroner, he isn't telling a story.

The question was: "After she left Cardiff, did she come direct to London?"

Barnett gave a direct answer - 'Yes, she was in a gay house in the west end".

He isn't being vague, he isn't avoiding any questions.

Fair enough. I'm going to take a look at the inquest and then respond. Shouldn't take long; it was rather a short one!

[Losmandris]

If Mrs McCarthy is to be believed, Kelly didn’t keep a low profile from her former French employer in Knightsbridge. She called back at her premises to collect her belongings. And it would have been rather strange for the French lady to have handed over a box of costly dresses to a woman who had absconded from her or her associates. It makes more sense to me that Kelly proved hard to control and her West End/French employers passed her down the line to the Breezer’s Hill lot. The Ratcliff Highway brothel keepers were said to have contacts in the West End and on the Continent.

If Mrs Buki was telling the truth and Kelly did indeed have two (presumably front) teeth missing, you have to wonder when she lost them - and how. There are several examples of extreme violence being meted out to women working for the East End brothel keepers. In moving to Spitalfields Kelly may have been trying to keep a low profile from her previous employers in the Highway.

Very good points Mr B!

[Wickerman]

Star 12 Nov
"It appears from inquiries made at Carmarthen and Swansea, that after leaving the former place for the latter, Kelly, who was then only 17 years of age, entered the service of a Mrs. Rees, who stands committed to the next assizes on a charge of procuring abortion, and who is the daughter of a medical man formerly resident at Carmarthen."

This was published in the Western Mail, 13 Nov.





If I recall, this lead turned out to be a dead end.

[Wickerman]

Fair enough. I'm going to take a look at the inquest and then respond. Shouldn't take long; it was rather a short one!

Martyn!, that should have been your first port of call, not your last.

[Wickerman]

Who's Elizabeth Foster?


South Wales Echo, 12 Nov.

[Wickerman]

With reference to post 172 above...


South Wales Daily News, 13 Nov.

[JeffHamm]

With reference to post 172 above...


South Wales Daily News, 13 Nov.

Interesting. In the previous article (post #172), Mr. Rees appears to have been spoken to and to verify that MJK was in his service, and that he even saw her in London and spoke with her. The article in 172 indicates he had been previously married, and that MJK was in his service at that time. The article in #175, says that Mrs. Rees only moved to Swansea 3 years ago, but surely that must be the current Mrs. Rees (I don't know if he divorced or was widowed; if the latter then it must be the wrong Mrs. Rees who has been spoken to in the article shown in post 175).

By the sounds of it, MJK might have been a bit on the wild side in Swansea, but I don't get the impression it was to such an extent as she would have come to the police's attention.

Anyway, I've not delved into archival research, nor am I skilled in geneology, so I'm only giving my impression of how those two articles pair up together. It strikes me, though, either the first article is entirely fabricated by the reporter, or the reporter tracked down Mr. Rees who verified MJK as being MJK, and that she indeed worked for him at some point. I'm not sure the 2nd article is really enough to conclude that the lead in post #172 is a dead end. Is there more behind that decision?

- Jeff

[erobitha]

I tried looking for a Mary Kelly being born in Lallenlly around 1860-1868 - couldn't find any.

Found one born in Swansea. Parents are Irish. The only time this family appear on any census together. A Cornelius Kelly was registered as a patient in an Abergavenny lunatic asylum in 1891 and 1901 census, but the age and place of birth seem to be off. On this census, the original record shows he was a Labourer.

[erobitha]

Some Swansea Marriage candidates for the Rees's:

Charles Rees married Annie Hopkins in 1871.
David Rees married Catherine Hopkins in 1866.
Rees Rees married Janet Hopkins in 1869.
Rowland Rees married Alice Hopkins in 1869.
William Rees married Mary Hopkins in 1868
William Rees married Elizabeth Hopkins 1870.

Next step, which I don't have time now is to cross-reference the 1871 censuses to see if we get a match for occupations where the couple could keep service staff. The first one is too late but the rest are worth checking.

[mpriestnall]

[QUOTE=Wickerman;n761863]

Martyn!, that should have been your first port of call, not your last.

As usual your'e right! Primary sources and facts just get in the way...

Newbie stuff I know, but it's important to my response. I need to be clear in my own mind as to the purpose of an inquest into a death.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles...s-and-inquests states:
Quote
An inquest is an inquiry into the circumstances surrounding a death. The purpose of the inquest is to find out who the deceased person was and how, when and where they died and to provide the details needed for their death to be registered.
Unquote

How well does this modern day definition apply to the inquests for the WMs?

I'm just wondering why certain matters were included in Kelly's personal history and others were not.

Thanks,

Martyn

[Wickerman]

[QUOTE=mpriestnall;n761926]

Martyn!, that should have been your first port of call, not your last.

As usual your'e right! Primary sources and facts just get in the way...

Martyn, I hope you realize I only saw the opportunity to make a joke....

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles...s-and-inquests states:
Quote
An inquest is an inquiry into the circumstances surrounding a death. The purpose of the inquest is to find out who the deceased person was and how, when and where they died and to provide the details needed for their death to be registered.
Unquote

How well does this modern day definition apply to the inquests for the WMs?

It's actually not new, it is there in writing in the 1887 Coroner's Act.

I'm just wondering why certain matters were included in Kelly's personal history and others were not.

It was a minimum standard.