The Key and Other Stuff...

[Chava]

One thing struck me while checking out Mary Ann Cox's evidence. I believe she was the last credible witness to see MJK alive. She describes MJK as walking up the court, drunk as a lord, and banging her door on the way in to her room. She does not describe her leaning in the window to draw the latch, which was a way MJK apparently used to give the room the semblance of being locked though the key was missing. So either the door was left unlocked--highly possible--or MJK had found the key--also highly possible given the evidence of the door being locked after the murder. Either way, no one seems to have discussed this evidence by Cox and I thought it was interesting.

Also, as you guys know, I fancy Mr Blotchy as the Ripper, although against him is the fact that Kelly was heard singing for quite a while after she went into her room with him. I've always assumed that the Ripper killed his victims very quickly after having met them. But as I check this theory out, it starts to fall apart a little. Nicholls was last seen alive at 2.15 am, but she was found recently killed at around 3.40 am. So there's an hour and a half missing there.

Chapman is last seen alive at the doss-house at 1.45 am. She's discovered just before 6.00 am and the time of death has never been definitively established although anecdotally it sounds like between 5.15 am and 5.35 am. So there is considerable time missing there.

Stride is seen walking with a young man around 12.35 am, is possibly the victim of an assault a few minutes later, is seen talking to a man shortly after that and is found at 1.00 am.

Eddowes is allowed to leave Bishopsgate Nick at 1.00 am. She's seen talking to a young man around 1.35 am and found at 1.45 am.

It's entirely possible that the Ripper chats for a while to his victims. Maybe enjoys spending time getting to know them. So the fact that Kelly continues to sing does not take him off the hook for her murder in my opinion.

[Robert]

Hi Chava

i do not see why the Ripper should want to perambulate the east end with Chapman for two or three hours and I'd be surprised if Chapman would have appreciated such time-wasting. Basically she just wanted to make some money as quickly as possible.

I cannot imagine Jack sitting there listening to Mary's singing, though exposure to it might provide a motive for the murder.

[zippy72]

Hi,

What this does make me wonder is whether Jack is lulling them into a false sense of security, whether he is taking his time and enjoying the anticipation of what he is going to do (I imagine that's similar to how I feel when I promise myself a curry after work, only rather more intense and disturbing). Or even whether Jack was never actually a client, but a voyeur who stepped in after the event? (Must admit that is the first time I have thought that last so I don't really give it too much credence)

[Cogidubnus]

Hi zippy

I've got this weird thought that maybe he "dated" some of them...it started for me with Stride - who left Kidney, placed her most treasured belongings with someone else, then generally played it like girlie on first date (flower etc)...then Eddowes who made an excuse to leave boyfriend and went east...somebody bought her drinks...lots of drinks...who? then Kelly...there was the distancing from Barnett, the trusting admission of someone in the early hours, and the relative nakedness (which wasn't at all what an east end whore was about)....

Then going back, Chapman... who knows...Robert's quite right...she was surely (initially at least) just looking for a quicky who'd buy her a bed for the night...but who's to tell if what, for example, Ms Long saw and heard was more of the same old blarney? The more I think about it, the more I think either "he"s about three separate people, or "he"s some kind of date rapist - with the knife substituting the rape...

Well done zippy...you've got me thinking!

All the best

Dave

[Bridewell]

I see him as an opportunist, pure and simple. The women he dispatched were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Damaso Marte]

Most posters here reject the idea of the Ripper as an ambush killer: if we accept that he chatted with his victims at least a little bit (what else could the person Lawende saw be doing with Eddowes?), and after all chatting is required to set up a transaction, it is not absurd at all that he maybe chatted with them for a half hour or so, about the weather or whatever else.

I've never purchased the services of a prostitute, but my understanding is that men often hire them for periods of time longer than the sexual act itself? You could argue that destitute prostitutes would want to be efficient and maximize the number of clients per hour, leading to shorter sessions devoid of too much chatting, but let's remember that the killer most likely gave himself a "refund" after the murder, so he could in theory have dangled a generous amount of money with little financial risk to himself.

[Wickerman]

...She describes MJK as walking up the court, drunk as a lord, and banging her door on the way in to her room.

In most reports Kelly slammed the door shut, but in some it was Blotchy who slammed it shut.
No report mentions how Kelly opened the door, so maybe it was not locked.

The door being a spring lock would automatically latch when closed, unless the latch was held back, defeating the 'auto' feature.

There was some opinion offered sometime back, I can't remember the source, tenants in this type of dwelling didn't bother locking the door when they were out, there was nothing worth stealing.
The contents mostly belonged to the landlord anyway. The reason these doors had locks was for the tenants own protection. They would only lock the door when they were in. In other words, a locked door usually meant the tenant was home.

Regards, Jon S.

[Barnaby]

If you mean by chatting that he spent however long it took the victims to lead him to an isolated place (e.g., 5-10 minutes) then sure. But he would be out of his mind to be loitering in public for extended periods of time with the women he planned to kill.

[Damaso Marte]

If you mean by chatting that he spent however long it took the victims to lead him to an isolated place (e.g., 5-10 minutes) then sure. But he would be out of his mind to be loitering in public for extended periods of time with the women he planned to kill.

Ah, but if the reason he didn't spend a lot of time with the outdoor victims is because of rational risk aversion (and not, say, inability to behave normally in social situations), then this creates a reason why MJK would be different: the risk analysis is different indoors.

[kensei]

If you mean by chatting that he spent however long it took the victims to lead him to an isolated place (e.g., 5-10 minutes) then sure. But he would be out of his mind to be loitering in public for extended periods of time with the women he planned to kill.

Of course he was out of his mind, he was a serial killer. That doesn't have to mean totally unhinged and not knowing what he was doing, but certainly operating under a mindset that others don't share and sometimes doing things that seem irrational to us. Loitering in public for extended periods of time with the women he planned to kill? That is exactly what Ted Bundy did at Lake Samamish, in broad daylight with hundreds of witnesses. In short, what crazy people do doesn't have to make sense.

[Sally]

Of course he was out of his mind, he was a serial killer. That doesn't have to mean totally unhinged and not knowing what he was doing, but certainly operating under a mindset that others don't share and sometimes doing things that seem irrational to us. Loitering in public for extended periods of time with the women he planned to kill? That is exactly what Ted Bundy did at Lake Samamish, in broad daylight with hundreds of witnesses. In short, what crazy people do doesn't have to make sense.

I don't think that's as risky as we might think. A man and woman chatting in public is normal behaviour - and as passers by we tend not to notice normal behaviour - even less so if there are several people on the street.

[Fleetwood Mac]

It's entirely possible that the Ripper chats for a while to his victims. Maybe enjoys spending time getting to know them. So the fact that Kelly continues to sing does not take him off the hook for her murder in my opinion.

The fact that she sings places Blotchy as a credible suspect.

Her singing means there's a decent chance that he's still there during the estimated time of death (as provided by the two doctors).

[Cogidubnus]

Hence he's developed a relationship with her...so has he "dated" her?

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

If youre going to look at the issue of the key you also have to look at the broken window that fortuitously was at just the right place for a reach inside to release the lock, latch. The key was supposedly lost for a few weeks, considering Marys delinquent rent I suppose she may have felt she couldnt ask for one until she had some back rent, or perhaps was denied one by McCarthy.

The fight that caused a window to break accidentally was between Mary and Joe, but which window gets broken at that time?

The pane configuration on the windows differs, and on the one closest to the court there are 3 rows of panes, I believe 5 smaller panes in each. Its really difficult to make it out unless youve seen the right photo. My point being that there are 2 smaller panes broken, one area with multiple panes damaged.

I think they broke the pane that allowed the access themselves as a way to compensate for the lost key issue. The other, higher up and further back, was a result of the fight.

Just thought it might add some dimension to the picture of these 2.

Cheers

[Barnaby]

Loitering in public for extended periods of time with the women he planned to kill? That is exactly what Ted Bundy did at Lake Samamish, in broad daylight with hundreds of witnesses. In short, what crazy people do doesn't have to make sense.

With respect to the comparison with Bundy, I think that it would be much safer for Bundy to blend in with hundreds at a lake than Jack soliciting prostitutes in the dead of night during the Ripper scare. As such, I think he met them and relatively quickly dispatched them, with the possible exception of Kelly.