The Key and Other Stuff...

[Fleetwood Mac]

One thing struck me while checking out Mary Ann Cox's evidence. I believe she was the last credible witness to see MJK alive. She describes MJK as walking up the court, drunk as a lord, and banging her door on the way in to her room. She does not describe her leaning in the window to draw the latch, which was a way MJK apparently used to give the room the semblance of being locked though the key was missing. So either the door was left unlocked--highly possible--or MJK had found the key--also highly possible given the evidence of the door being locked after the murder. Either way, no one seems to have discussed this evidence by Cox and I thought it was interesting.

Also, as you guys know, I fancy Mr Blotchy as the Ripper, although against him is the fact that Kelly was heard singing for quite a while after she went into her room with him. I've always assumed that the Ripper killed his victims very quickly after having met them. But as I check this theory out, it starts to fall apart a little. Nicholls was last seen alive at 2.15 am, but she was found recently killed at around 3.40 am. So there's an hour and a half missing there.

Chapman is last seen alive at the doss-house at 1.45 am. She's discovered just before 6.00 am and the time of death has never been definitively established although anecdotally it sounds like between 5.15 am and 5.35 am. So there is considerable time missing there.

Stride is seen walking with a young man around 12.35 am, is possibly the victim of an assault a few minutes later, is seen talking to a man shortly after that and is found at 1.00 am.

Eddowes is allowed to leave Bishopsgate Nick at 1.00 am. She's seen talking to a young man around 1.35 am and found at 1.45 am.

It's entirely possible that the Ripper chats for a while to his victims. Maybe enjoys spending time getting to know them. So the fact that Kelly continues to sing does not take him off the hook for her murder in my opinion.

Chava,

I would say the singing goes for him rather than against him.

For Blotchy to be Jack, he must have spent some time in there, and the singining suggests he wasn't a 10 minute punter before moving onto other opportunities.

I fancy him for it, too, on the grounds that Cox's statement suggests they were setttling in for the night.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Bridewell,
A couple of points .
None of the court residents , including Lizzie A, and Mrs Harvey knew of the existence of a key, and it would appear that even after Barnett left, it was still missing and not used by the victim, at least in their presence, because of this I doubt if Mary had some devious scheme in mind.
As the key was missing , and then found, one can surmise that it was either out of sight in room 13, and not known by Kelly, or in the procession of someone who removed it, and it was either given in , or found amongst somebody's belongings.
I am somewhat suspicious of the Key being found.
As for the coat hanging to hinder entry via the window, obviously as the coat was apparently left by Harvey on the 8th, this practise was short-lived.
It is possible that the key was found after the room was searched by the police, but surely after realizing that the key was missing, a hunt of the room was a logical choice for both Barnett, and Kelly, but to no avail.
What a complex case the Jack the Ripper murders are?
Regards Richard.

[Bridewell]

"An impression has gone abroad that the murderer took away the key of the room. Barnett informs me that it has been missing some time, and since it has been lost they have put their hand through the broken window, and moved back the catch. It is quite easy."

Of course, the fact that Barnett believed the key to be missing, doesn't necessarily mean that it was in fact missing. If MJK was trying to off-load Barnett she could have hidden the key and told Barnett it was lost. Maybe, just maybe, it was Barnett and Barnett only who used to access the room by reaching through the window. Hanging the coat between window and door would serve to make that process more difficult.

[The Good Michael]

Have you never had the experience of being unable to find something vital, and it was actually just misplaced around the house somewhere, and turned up later? It could have gone missing - dropped behind something. Barnett and MJK couldn't find it - but a thorough clearace of the room did.


On the other hand, I cannot conceive why McCathy had to break in the door - did no one try it first?

l

Absolutely the most logical explanation key gets dropped on the wall side of the bed during a bit of drunkenness and it can't be found because, "How could it get there?"

I think McCarthy broke in the door because easily reaching in and undoing the latch would look a bit odd.

Mike

[Phil H]

Yet the whole Kelly-Barnett argument/broken window/pickaxed door/discovery scenario hinged on the key having gone missing.

Have you never had the experience of being unable to find something vital, and it was actually just misplaced around the house somewhere, and turned up later? It could have gone missing - dropped behind something. Barnett and MJK couldn't find it - but a thorough clearace of the room did.

On the other hand, Barnett could have hidden it in the room.

I do NOT rule out Joe's story as having been a tall tale.

On the other hand, I cannot conceive why McCathy had to break in the door - did no one try it first?

Phil

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Phil H,

I must agree.

Yet the whole Kelly-Barnett argument/broken window/pickaxed door/discovery scenario hinged on the key having gone missing.

Maybe it's just me, but I find it all very odd and a tad contrived.

And, before you ask me, no, I do not have an otherwise reasonable explanation.

Regards,

Simon

Evidence that the story may have been contrived, at least in part, may be in the fact that there were 2 breaks in that window, and only one allowed the access to the latch. My hunch is that they would have been very fortuitous to "accidentally" break the window during a fight and have the result allow them easy access to the lock. Which they sorely needed, lost key and all.

I believe that the story is a lie, and that Barnett made that break in the window purposefully, so they could access the room without the key. The upper left break is likely a result of the fight.

Which to me suggests,....the key was in fact missing.

Best regards Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Phil H,

I must agree.

Yet the whole Kelly-Barnett argument/broken window/pickaxed door/discovery scenario hinged on the key having gone missing.

Maybe it's just me, but I find it all very odd and a tad contrived.

And, before you ask me, no, I do not have an otherwise reasonable explanation.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil H]

One assumes in clearing the room itself - that would be the simplest explanation.

I must admit, I had never heard that last piece of information.

Phil

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Inspector Abberline, Kelly Inquest, 12th November 1888—

"An impression has gone abroad that the murderer took away the key of the room. Barnett informs me that it has been missing some time, and since it has been lost they have put their hand through the broken window, and moved back the catch. It is quite easy."

Star 12th November 1888—

"The key of the murdered woman's door has been found, so that her murderer did not carry it away with him, as was at first supposed."

Any guesses as to where it may have been found?

Regards,

Simon

[kensei]

I just think that with both Bundy and the Ripper (or any killer who is seen by witnesses with his intended victim), they rely on the fact that it seems normal for them to be seen talking to the victim at the time so passers by don't pay it much heed, but there is a boldness to them that makes them defy what they should be worried about- that is, what those passers by might remember in retrospect once they hear about the murder later and realize that they were there near that time.

[Barnaby]

Loitering in public for extended periods of time with the women he planned to kill? That is exactly what Ted Bundy did at Lake Samamish, in broad daylight with hundreds of witnesses. In short, what crazy people do doesn't have to make sense.

With respect to the comparison with Bundy, I think that it would be much safer for Bundy to blend in with hundreds at a lake than Jack soliciting prostitutes in the dead of night during the Ripper scare. As such, I think he met them and relatively quickly dispatched them, with the possible exception of Kelly.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

If youre going to look at the issue of the key you also have to look at the broken window that fortuitously was at just the right place for a reach inside to release the lock, latch. The key was supposedly lost for a few weeks, considering Marys delinquent rent I suppose she may have felt she couldnt ask for one until she had some back rent, or perhaps was denied one by McCarthy.

The fight that caused a window to break accidentally was between Mary and Joe, but which window gets broken at that time?

The pane configuration on the windows differs, and on the one closest to the court there are 3 rows of panes, I believe 5 smaller panes in each. Its really difficult to make it out unless youve seen the right photo. My point being that there are 2 smaller panes broken, one area with multiple panes damaged.

I think they broke the pane that allowed the access themselves as a way to compensate for the lost key issue. The other, higher up and further back, was a result of the fight.

Just thought it might add some dimension to the picture of these 2.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Hence he's developed a relationship with her...so has he "dated" her?

All the best

Dave

[Fleetwood Mac]

It's entirely possible that the Ripper chats for a while to his victims. Maybe enjoys spending time getting to know them. So the fact that Kelly continues to sing does not take him off the hook for her murder in my opinion.

The fact that she sings places Blotchy as a credible suspect.

Her singing means there's a decent chance that he's still there during the estimated time of death (as provided by the two doctors).

[Sally]

Of course he was out of his mind, he was a serial killer. That doesn't have to mean totally unhinged and not knowing what he was doing, but certainly operating under a mindset that others don't share and sometimes doing things that seem irrational to us. Loitering in public for extended periods of time with the women he planned to kill? That is exactly what Ted Bundy did at Lake Samamish, in broad daylight with hundreds of witnesses. In short, what crazy people do doesn't have to make sense.

I don't think that's as risky as we might think. A man and woman chatting in public is normal behaviour - and as passers by we tend not to notice normal behaviour - even less so if there are several people on the street.