'Johnto'

[Prosector]

In doing some reading yesterday I came across the inquest report in the South Wales Daily News for 13th November. It mentions Julia Vanturney's testimony that MJK had another admirer that she preferred to Joe Barnet who had visited her frequently in Miller's Court (nothing new about that) but then goes on to mention that Mrs M'Carthy in Pennington Street had said that MJK turned up at her door 'some short time ago' and took a room for the night with another man for which she paid two shillings. That didn't come out at the inquest. Who do people think this man was and is it relevant? Mrs M'Carthy did know Joseph Fleming from a couple of years earlier so presumably it wasn't him.

[Wickerman]

Yet all the other victims had family members who did reveal themselves.

The most significant difference between Kelly, and the rest was her age.
Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, etc. had only turned to prostitution because they fell on hard times. They had been wives, mothers, raised a family, like all respectable people. But, due to circumstances beyond their control, mostly, they had no alternative but to turn to the streets.
A sympathetic few might view them as "poor things", having no choice left in life, but this sympathy is hard to apply to a young attractive female like Kelly.

Mary Kelly apparently, made a conscious choice, and any neighbors or people who knew the family would have concluded the same. This would be very damning in Victorian society, to make a choice to walk the streets is even worse than falling on hard times.

[Prosector]

I totally agree. EWD, whether or not she was MJK made a deliberate choice and was already getting on the wrong side of the law when she was mixed up with some local boys in salmon poaching and assaulting water bailiffs in 1874. If she was the 'genuine' MJK and daughter of the gaffer in an ironworks, she too seems to have made a deliberate choice. All the more reason why their families may have wished to distance themselves from them. EWD, although younger than the other canonicals was not 25 as stated at the inquest but 32. Several people including her landlord said that she looked about 30 although she understated her age in both the 1881 census and her marriage certificate.

[MrBarnett]

In doing some reading yesterday I came across the inquest report in the South Wales Daily News for 13th November. It mentions Julia Vanturney's testimony that MJK had another admirer that she preferred to Joe Barnet who had visited her frequently in Miller's Court (nothing new about that) but then goes on to mention that Mrs M'Carthy in Pennington Street had said that MJK turned up at her door 'some short time ago' and took a room for the night with another man for which she paid two shillings. That didn't come out at the inquest. Who do people think this man was and is it relevant? Mrs M'Carthy did know Joseph Fleming from a couple of years earlier so presumably it wasn't him.

Just another punter, I’ve always thought.

[Aelric]

It's funny that Julia Vanturney tells of MJK & partner paying Mrs M'Carthy two shillings for a room for the night and then we have Hutchinson claiming to have given MJK a few shillings on occasion. For the record, I fall down on the disbelieving all of Hutch's story side of things, but I wonder if MJK's fella that night could have been Georgie Boy and that was the nugget of truth he built his tale upon?

[MrBarnett]

So this is premised on the fact you believe that Tabram, Coles and McKenzie were JTR victims whereas I was focused on the canonical five. I could argue the simple research time invested in tracing the history and families of the canonical five far outweigh that of the others so it stands to reason we know more about them. With the exception of MJK who has probably had the most research conducted and time invested and yet we are effectively none the wiser.

Only McKenize you can safely say the family denied her because of shame. So that is 1 out of 8.

Stride’s family did not attend her burial this is true, but they were in Sweden. Doesn’t mean they didn’t acknowledge her - but I’ll concede to 2 out 8.

Based on actual data there is effectively a 25% chance that MJK’s family did not make themselves known because of shame. Not impossible - but I’m plumping for the other 75% of it not being that.

Another way of looking at it is that of the victims whose ID’s weren’t as plain as a pikestaff and therefore undeniable by their families, none of their families came forward.

[Prosector]

The report in the South Wales Daily News does not attribute the bit about Mrs M'Carthy saying that MJK paid her 2s for a bed for the night to Julia Vanturney. It is a separate report in the same article, presumably from Mrs M'Carthy herself.

Personally I think that Huchinson was a self-serving publicist after a few shillings from the press men. Hardly likely to put himself forward if he was the killer surely?

[Chava]

Yet all the other victims had family members who did reveal themselves.

But they were older by quite a lot. And they'd had documentable events like marriages and births ergo had husbands and kids who could come forward to identify. The only exception was Long Liz Stride. Who told porkies about the Princess Alice in order to make herself seem more sympathetic and pitiable. I honestly don't believe a word that comes out of Mary Jane Kelly's mouth. I don't believe the 'gay house in the West End'. I don't believe the trip to France. I don't believe the tragic young love killed in a mining disaster--which comes under the heading of Princess Alice to me. She was making up stuff to sound interesting to the punters. She may well have been trying to avoid trouble by changing her name. Or she might just have felt that if she had to, say, do a flit from the landlord she owed money to, having a generic name like Mary Jane Kelly might make it that bit harder to find her. It definitely sounds like she was Irish born. She may well have spent time in Wales.
Er..that's it.
The only way we'll get her is by DNA. But it doesn't sound like that's ever going to happen.

[MrBarnett]

The report in the South Wales Daily News does not attribute the bit about Mrs M'Carthy saying that MJK paid her 2s for a bed for the night to Julia Vanturney. It is a separate report in the same article, presumably from Mrs M'Carthy herself.

Personally I think that Huchinson was a self-serving publicist after a few shillings from the press men. Hardly likely to put himself forward if he was the killer surely?

I think 2s was about the going rate for a room and a girl in the Ratcliff Highway st the time. The punter would probably also have been expected to fork out for alcohol for the house.

There was a fair bit of to-ing and fro-ing between Pennington Street/Breezers Hill and elsewhere as and when the brothel-keepers wives had/lost children.

[Prosector]

But they were older by quite a lot. And they'd had documentable events like marriages and births ergo had husbands and kids who could come forward to identify. The only exception was Long Liz Stride. Who told porkies about the Princess Alice in order to make herself seem more sympathetic and pitiable. I honestly don't believe a word that comes out of Mary Jane Kelly's mouth. I don't believe the 'gay house in the West End'. I don't believe the trip to France. I don't believe the tragic young love killed in a mining disaster--which comes under the heading of Princess Alice to me. She was making up stuff to sound interesting to the punters. She may well have been trying to avoid trouble by changing her name. Or she might just have felt that if she had to, say, do a flit from the landlord she owed money to, having a generic name like Mary Jane Kelly might make it that bit harder to find her. It definitely sounds like she was Irish born. She may well have spent time in Wales.
Er..that's it.
The only way we'll get her is by DNA. But it doesn't sound like that's ever going to happen.

You may well be right and yet somewhere in London at around that time there was a young Welsh prostitute who had spent time in a gay house in the West End (and may have left some dresses there) and who was married to a rather eccentric man who had taken her to France but who had not been married to a man called Davies who was killed in a pit explosion but who had used the story of being a widow (called Jones rather than Davies) at the time of her own marriage (who knows what she told her new husband about Mr Jones). She may not have been the same girl who lived in Millers Court but she was around somewhere and an older man was looking for her. I would be delighted if someone could definitively find Elizabeth Weston Davies (aka Jones, aka Craig) because I have spent half my life looking for her.

[Scott Nelson]

Whatever happened to the Henry Johnstone inquiry?

[Chava]

You may well be right and yet somewhere in London at around that time there was a young Welsh prostitute who had spent time in a gay house in the West End (and may have left some dresses there) and who was married to a rather eccentric man who had taken her to France but who had not been married to a man called Davies who was killed in a pit explosion but who had used the story of being a widow (called Jones rather than Davies) at the time of her own marriage (who knows what she told her new husband about Mr Jones). She may not have been the same girl who lived in Millers Court but she was around somewhere and an older man was looking for her. I would be delighted if someone could definitively find Elizabeth Weston Davies (aka Jones, aka Craig) because I have spent half my life looking for her.

I understand that.

But these women made up stories all the time. And passed names around like confetti. For which I don't blame them at all. I have a 'suppose' for you. Suppose 'Mary Jane Kelly' met Elizabeth Weston Davies over a glass of gin in the 10 Bells or wherever. Elizabeth tells Mary Jane her story. Mary Jane thinks 'that's glamorous! I can make some hay with that tale' and appropriates it for her own. Perhaps incorporating some elements of her own life to keep it easy to remember.
Now if I was a novelist I could see a novel in which Mad Mr Davies looks everywhere for his Elizabeth. Hears about Mary Jane. Bursts in on her only to discover he's killed the wrong woman. Takes her apart in his rage and obsession for daring to pose as his wife...

But for me that's just a novel.

[MrBarnett]

I understand that.

But these women made up stories all the time. And passed names around like confetti. For which I don't blame them at all. I have a 'suppose' for you. Suppose 'Mary Jane Kelly' met Elizabeth Weston Davies over a glass of gin in the 10 Bells or wherever. Elizabeth tells Mary Jane her story. Mary Jane thinks 'that's glamorous! I can make some hay with that tale' and appropriates it for her own. Perhaps incorporating some elements of her own life to keep it easy to remember.
Now if I was a novelist I could see a novel in which Mad Mr Davies looks everywhere for his Elizabeth. Hears about Mary Jane. Bursts in on her only to discover he's killed the wrong woman. Takes her apart in his rage and obsession for daring to pose as his wife...

But for me that's just a novel.

Hi Chava,

Which women do you have in mind who used names like confetti.

Gary

[Chava]

Hi Chava,

Which women do you have in mind who used names like confetti.

Gary

Catherine Eddowes/Conway/Kelly/Mary Ann Kelly
Liz Stride/Annie Fitzgerald
Annie Chapman aka Sievey or Sieffey

Polly Nichols doesn't seem to have used any aliases.
Annie Chapman called herself--more likely was called--after her partner's occupation.

But Eddowes & Stride did use aliases.

[MrBarnett]

Catherine Eddowes/Conway/Kelly/Mary Ann Kelly
Liz Stride/Annie Fitzgerald
Annie Chapman aka Sievey or Sieffey

Polly Nichols doesn't seem to have used any aliases.
Annie Chapman called herself--more likely was called--after her partner's occupation.

But Eddowes & Stride did use aliases.

Has it been established that Stride used the Annie Fitzgerald alias?

If you include a few misspellings, Alice ‘McKenzie’ racked up 17/18 surnames.