'Johnto'

[Chava]

I know that various John Thomases have been cited as possible brothers to MJK. But with respect I think it's much more likely that 'Johnto' is a nickname for someone whose name is John Thomas Smith/Jones/Kelly/Whatever. The much-loved Welsh Nanny who brought me up always called me by both names. And I've come across this a lot when visiting there. So 'Thomas' in my opinion is not likely to be Johnto's surname.

[erobitha]

As I am one of those advocates of the "John Thomas Theory" I note you have no evidence to discount the theory other than hearsay of your inetraction with a Welsh nanny?

Have you also ruled out the possibility of the fact that Thomas could have been his middle name as well as his surname? John Thomas Thomas makes a strong candiate for "Johnto".

[DJA]

My brother used to joke that his son is "John too",as was our father.

Confident John III will continue the tradition.

[erobitha]

My brother used to joke that his son is "John too",as was our father.

Confident John III will continue the tradition.

My Mary Kelly's brother was called John and their dad was also called John. So John too could be viable too.

[Chava]

As I am one of those advocates of the "John Thomas Theory" I note you have no evidence to discount the theory other than hearsay of your inetraction with a Welsh nanny?

Have you also ruled out the possibility of the fact that Thomas could have been his middle name as well as his surname? John Thomas Thomas makes a strong candiate for "Johnto".

I was online researching Wesh surnames etc when I saw this. And while so far I've nothing more than anecdotal evidence to suggest my original idea, I did find out some very interesting info that might really muddy the waters. Apparently in Wales until at least the mid 19th C there was a blending of patronymics and true surnames where the 'surname' was in fact a patronymic. And not necessarily the name of the father. It could also be the name of the grandfather. There were also arbitrary occasions where a subject might be known by two names--one a patronymic, one a surname. The example I've seen given is 'David Morgan Huw' who is also down in some records as 'David Morgan'.. It seems names are a moveable feast in Wales right up until the early 20th C. In other words if we go looking for, say, Kelly's young husband whose name was given as Davies, (for the sake of this post I'll call him John) he might have been registered in a mine disaster as John Davies. Or he might have been registered as, say, John Davies Williams--a patronymic--or John Davies Thomas--his grandfather's name. Or the list maker might have dropped the Davies completely as a middle name. And then the poor boy goes down as John Williams or John Thomas.

My beloved Nanny's name btw was Violet Thomas. Maybe she was a relation to Johnto...

[erobitha]

I have established a marriage between William Davies and Mary Thomas in 1879 in Carmarthen. A William Davies died in the 1880 Risca colamine disaster.

[Chava]

I have established a marriage between William Davies and Mary Thomas in 1879 in Carmarthen. A William Davies died in the 1880 Risca colamine disaster.

And?
Do you know how many Davies & Thomas there were in Wales at that time?
And still.

[erobitha]

And?
Do you know how many Davies & Thomas there were in Wales at that time?
And still.

About as many Mary Kellys in Ireland

[Bridewell]

And?
Do you know how many Davies & Thomas there were in Wales at that time?
And still.

But how many men with the Davies surname were killed in pit disasters? Surprisingly few and even fewer within the relevant time period.

[Bridewell]

I have established a marriage between William Davies and Mary Thomas in 1879 in Carmarthen. A William Davies died in the 1880 Risca colamine disaster.

That is very interesting - Davies - Mary - Carmarthen & a good fit for the date. I'm interested if no-one else is because the identity of MJK is the great mystery - more important than the identity of JtR because he was a waste of space, good-for-nothing nobody - whoever he was.

(I'm assuming it was a coalmine btw, not a colamine - delicious though that sounds).

[Chava]

But how many men with the Davies surname were killed in pit disasters? Surprisingly few and even fewer within the relevant time period.

However my point is that judging by what I've read his name may not be down on the manifest as Davies even though that was the name he registered when he started at the colliery. And not for any nefarious purpose either. Multiple names seemed quite common.

[erobitha]

(I'm assuming it was a coalmine btw, not a colamine - delicious though that sounds).

Ha ha - tiredness is catching up with me

I'm still pulling at a few threads but the timings fit extremely well:

- The Thomas family I am researching can be traced to the birth of the mother Phoebe and Father John in Carmarthen
- Their marriage in 1858 was in Carmarthen
- They then disappear altogether on the 1861 census in Wales. Turns out the 1861 Irish census records have all been lost in a fire. My guess from around 1860-1870 they were in Ireland where the children were most likely born (still hunting those births down to match up)
- The family reappear in Carmarthen in the 1871 census with numerous children including a girl called Mary born in 1864, which if is our Mary as I believe was 24 when murdered
- William Davies & Mary Thomas married in the 2nd quarter of 1879 in Carmarthen
- In July 1879 William Davies and Mary Thomas welcomed a baby daughter named Mary Elizabeth Davies born in Carmarthen. Mary had a sister called Elizabeth and coincidentally another called Jane
- In July 1880 Risca coalmine explosion saw over 100 men die. In the local papers the following day they named the dead and their marital status. Only two Davies were named, James and William. James was listed as single and William was listed as married
- In 1881 census the Thomas family have appeared in Merthyr Tydfill this time, minus Mary but with another daughter born since. John Snr & Jnr become coal miners
- Also in 1881 a 17 year old prostitute called Mary Thomas working in a brothel in Newport, just a few miles outside of Risca was arrested and charged with robbing a client. She was acquitted for being "too young" but the brothel keeper Mrs Haggarty was sent to prison for the crime. Could be the same Mary looking to survive after the death of her husband and with a baby daughter to look after.

I have more but I'll sit on that for now

[Wickerman]

My brother used to joke that his son is "John too",as was our father.

And that is precisely the context where 'Johnto' is used.
Context is everything, when people isolate a name out of context they will end up venturing down numerous rabbit holes in search of a meaning.

Kelly's father was named John, her brother was known as "John too".
Lots of people today don't use a second 'o' ("to" instead of "too"), it is extremely common.
What is more, Abberline was known to string his words together.

[Prosector]

With reference to Johnto. My grandfather, John Evan Weston Davies was known to his family as Johnto throughout his life (and as you know, I think he was the Johnto who visited MJK in the East End). The to suffix had nothing to do with Thomas. Adding to or o to boys names is very common in Wales, particularly North Wales (think of ther habit of saying boyo rather than boy in Wales). His son Wynne (my uncle) was known as Wynnto and sometimes signed his name that way and I have been known as Wynno to my family throughout my life. Johnto should actually be written Ianto as there is no J in Welsh.
Prosector

[Wickerman]

The point about Abberline's note is that the brother's name was Henry, not John.