Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Each victim is represented with their own map that shows, amongst other thing, where they lodged in relation to their murder location.

JM

Thanks JM. You're right of course. I was distracted by looking for a compilation map such as the one in Paley's book. Every time I look at the CSI: Whitechapel book I am amazed at the atmospheric drawings and the way it provides an unbiased treatment of a wealth of topics. Definitely a must have.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

Found it. The map was in Bruce Paley's book "The Simple Truth", which advocated Barnett as the ripper. The letters V to Z are the dwelling places of the C5, in order. The numbers 8 to 11 are the dwelling places of Barnett from 1887 until he moved out of Miller's Court.

Profiling has indicated that Jack lived in, or in the vicinity of, Flower and Dean St. Barnett seems to qualify in this regard, but who else lived in that vicinity? John Kelly, McCarthy, Bowyer, James Hardiman, Richardson, Hutchinson. Anyone else?

Cheers, George

Exceptional post.

May I ask whether this includes other "potential" victims like McKenzie and Coles?
Although it will sound unpopular I believe it's better to include the other potential victims in addition to the canonical 5 because it's better to have them than to not have them as then we have the most complete picture possible and then can adapt it accordingly for those who are staunch Canonical 5 believers.
I would also add the Pinchin Street Torso and the Torso found under New Scotland Yard building to be even more controversial.

Once there's a map that illustrates the absolute maximum potential of Canonical 5, potential other victims and the torso killings, then it will give the absolute maximum number possible in terms of map locations.

In terms of the book that implicates Barnett, I agree that there are countless others that also lived/lodged/worked in that area and so the objectivity is lost and it nullifies the significance of the maps intention to be impartial.

What's he biggest mistake that ANY book on the ripper makes?... Almost every publication is written with a favourable suspect on mind depending on the authors beliefs.
But I believe that a map of this kind NEEDS to remain impartial in order for biase not to creep in and then lose objectivity.

The map you have shown is brilliant but I think it doesn't tell the whole picture (quite literally)

Is there a map like the one you've shown BUT including all the other extended parameters I mentioned?

RD

[Fleetwood Mac]

'Just on the doctors' estimated TOD:

I understand that The Times reported that Dr Phillips gave a 1 hour timeframe TOD. That seems odd to me given that Dr Phillips gave the same timeframe for Liz, but we have the obvious complications with assessing Mary.

My understanding is that Dr Phillips' TOD would have been calculated during the examination on Friday afternoon rather than at the post mortem on Saturday morning. Can somebody correct me in the event I have that wrong.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I read that Dr Phillips gave a timeframe of between 2am and 8am, and I think that was stated in a book authored by someone such as Paul Begg or Stewart Evans, or at least someone of that experience with the case.

Can somebody point me in the direction of the source document for that 2am to 8am statement because I can't for the life of me find it.

Cheers.

[Lewis C]

Exceptional post.

May I ask whether this includes other "potential" victims like McKenzie and Coles?
Although it will sound unpopular I believe it's better to include the other potential victims in addition to the canonical 5 because it's better to have them than to not have them as then we have the most complete picture possible and then can adapt it accordingly for those who are staunch Canonical 5 believers.
I would also add the Pinchin Street Torso and the Torso found under New Scotland Yard building to be even more controversial.

Once there's a map that illustrates the absolute maximum potential of Canonical 5, potential other victims and the torso killings, then it will give the absolute maximum number possible in terms of map locations.

I have no problem with that, but if you're going to include all of those victims, then Tabram should be included too, and maybe even Emma Smith.

[Lewis C]

Found it. The map was in Bruce Paley's book "The Simple Truth", which advocated Barnett as the ripper. The letters V to Z are the dwelling places of the C5, in order. The numbers 8 to 11 are the dwelling places of Barnett from 1887 until he moved out of Miller's Court.

Profiling has indicated that Jack lived in, or in the vicinity of, Flower and Dean St. Barnett seems to qualify in this regard, but who else lived in that vicinity? John Kelly, McCarthy, Bowyer, James Hardiman, Richardson, Hutchinson. Anyone else?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I think that it would be better to say that profiling indicates that there's a high probability that the general vicinity of Flower and Dean Street was a place of interest for JtR. Such a place of interest would be likely to be where he lived, but it could also be a place of employment. Others that I believe lived in that general vicinity are Levy, Cohen, Kosminsky, Hyams, and maybe also Chapman and Bachert, depending on how broadly you define "general vicinity". Bury, Cutbush, and Lechmere lived a little further, but spent time in the area where the murders occurred. I'm not sure where Fleming lived.

[The Rookie Detective]

I have no problem with that, but if you're going to include all of those victims, then Tabram should be included too, and maybe even Emma Smith.

Yes that's what I was referring to; ALL the potential victims.
My apologies for not mentioning them specifically.
That would absolutely include Tabram and Smith you're right.

RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi George,

I think that it would be better to say that profiling indicates that there's a high probability that the general vicinity of Flower and Dean Street was a place of interest for JtR. Such a place of interest would be likely to be where he lived, but it could also be a place of employment. Others that I believe lived in that general vicinity are Levy, Cohen, Kosminsky, Hyams, and maybe also Chapman and Bachert, depending on how broadly you define "general vicinity". Bury, Cutbush, and Lechmere lived a little further, but spent time in the area where the murders occurred. I'm not sure where Fleming lived.

Absolutely correct and now I feel we are onto something.

Barnardo also worked/visited/preached in Flower and Dean Street and other streets in that vicinity around the time of the murders, although at the time he lived in South Hackney with his wife.
He had trained at he London Hospital and had lived on the Mile End Road years prior.
We know he was in Flower and Dean Street on the Wednesday night BEFORE Stride was murdered because he identified her in the mortuary as one of the women he had spoken with in the kitchen at 32 Flower and Dean Street.
The only areas that Barnardo wouldn't have preached/visited would have been any Catholic churches because he was a staunch protestant and a member of the orange order (Dublin)

I'm glad you mentioned Bachert because he is someone whom we underestimate and on my personal top 5 suspects.

RD

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

I think that it would be better to say that profiling indicates that there's a high probability that the general vicinity of Flower and Dean Street was a place of interest for JtR. Such a place of interest would be likely to be where he lived, but it could also be a place of employment. Others that I believe lived in that general vicinity are Levy, Cohen, Kosminsky, Hyams, and maybe also Chapman and Bachert, depending on how broadly you define "general vicinity". Bury, Cutbush, and Lechmere lived a little further, but spent time in the area where the murders occurred. I'm not sure where Fleming lived.

Hi Lewis C,

Emma Smith and Martha Tabram lived at 18 and 19 George St respectively, which is just south of George Street's intersection with Flower and Dean St, So they would fit the profile. McKenzie lived in Gun St near its intersection with Artillery Lane. To my mind this is outside the profile area, or on the fringe at best. Coles lived in Thrawl St, so she is back in area again.

I wouldn't rate any of your named suspects as being relevant to living in the profile area, but maybe our resident expert on profiling, Jeff Hamm, might like to chime in at this point.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Interesting article here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2650534/Jack-Rippers-address-revealed-Geographic-profiling-pinpoints-street-serial-killer-lived.html

Seems that the Ten Bells pub may have been a focal point for the victims, and perhaps the perpetrator?

[New Waterloo]

I think this approach is really constructive. I if I could just throw an idea into the mix. If JTR is living very close to the victims which seems logical then this fly's in the face of lots of speculation over the years that JTR was a 'prowling' serial killer, stalking the streets of the East End. One thing we can say for certain is that from the last sightings of the victims to their murders they somehow met JTR. We have the murder sites as fact and witnesses stating WHERE they were last seen. Have we been looking at it the wrong way round. Is JTR static and not moving. In other words living or frequenting a place where the victims go. The victims for whatever reason go on their walks and pass the point where JTR is. He hooks up with them. Walks to the murder site with them. In other words in there an intersection point where all the victims pass through on the night of their murders. The Ten Bells pub is a great suggestion. The whole conversation is great.

NW

[GBinOz]

I think this approach is really constructive. I if I could just throw an idea into the mix. If JTR is living very close to the victims which seems logical then this fly's in the face of lots of speculation over the years that JTR was a 'prowling' serial killer, stalking the streets of the East End. One thing we can say for certain is that from the last sightings of the victims to their murders they somehow met JTR. We have the murder sites as fact and witnesses stating WHERE they were last seen. Have we been looking at it the wrong way round. Is JTR static and not moving. In other words living or frequenting a place where the victims go. The victims for whatever reason go on their walks and pass the point where JTR is. He hooks up with them. Walks to the murder site with them. In other words in there an intersection point where all the victims pass through on the night of their murders. The Ten Bells pub is a great suggestion. The whole conversation is great.

NW

Hi NW,

Welcome to the madhouse. You are presenting some independent thought outside of the box of the usual. If the victims knew Jack they would be off their guard until it was too late, and thence more vulnerable. Could we be looking for someone who picks his target from the women he knows and follows them to a spot where he can enact a chance meeting? Pure speculation of course, and off mainstream thinking, but isn't that why we're here?

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

I think this approach is really constructive. I if I could just throw an idea into the mix. If JTR is living very close to the victims which seems logical then this fly's in the face of lots of speculation over the years that JTR was a 'prowling' serial killer, stalking the streets of the East End. One thing we can say for certain is that from the last sightings of the victims to their murders they somehow met JTR. We have the murder sites as fact and witnesses stating WHERE they were last seen. Have we been looking at it the wrong way round. Is JTR static and not moving. In other words living or frequenting a place where the victims go. The victims for whatever reason go on their walks and pass the point where JTR is. He hooks up with them. Walks to the murder site with them. In other words in there an intersection point where all the victims pass through on the night of their murders. The Ten Bells pub is a great suggestion. The whole conversation is great.

NW

Your post encapsulates everything I've been trying to highlight and its refreshing to see someone give the idea a chance and some thought.
I've always had the belief that the places that the victims frequented while they were alive was more relevant than the actual murder sites, based on the premise that the victims knew the killer thorough social means.

My idea is based on the lodging houses that the women frequented before they died and this essentially includes...

Flower and Dean Street
Dorset Street
George Street

However, I had NOT considered public houses, which of course is somewhere that people SOCIALIZE and I think the point regarding the Ten Bells is brilliant.

Perhaps a combination of the lodging houses and public houses is where the killer hid in plain site.

I'd also add that it may have been WORK that also brought the killer to the area.

You may notice a few posts ago I mentioned that I intended to start a new topic thread, because I was concious of highjacking this thread and so I will do that imminently.

And yes, this is a brilliant topic to discuss because the idea is that we work together.

Welcome to the forum



RD

[The Rookie Detective]

I've just started a NEW Thread on the General Victims Discussion called 'Lodging Houses Link" as it's probably better to move from this specific thread regarding MJK.

Hope thats okay?


RD

[New Waterloo]

Thanks RD. Should make it clear that it was GBinOz suggestion of Ten Bells Pub which I think is a great suggestion. Not my idea. all credit to him. Will try to add to the new thread

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi NW,

Welcome to the madhouse. You are presenting some independent thought outside of the box of the usual. If the victims knew Jack they would be off their guard until it was too late, and thence more vulnerable. Could we be looking for someone who picks his target from the women he knows and follows them to a spot where he can enact a chance meeting? Pure speculation of course, and off mainstream thinking, but isn't that why we're here?

Cheers, George

Absolutely George, completely agree.


if it's okay, I've just started a new thread to continue this discussion on the General Victim Forum Thread and move from this thread concerning MJK specifically.

RD