Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[Michael W Richards]

Hi RD

I am seldom so bold,.... but I have to say the suggestion that Maxwell and Lewis were both mistaken about the day seems ludicrous to me. The most horrific murder took place on the day they saw her - there is no way you get that day mixed up with another so close to the event. I think the question to ask here is why did the police suggest that as an explanation - surely the more likely mistake would be who they saw, not when. But of course Maxwell knew MJK so perhaps they had to go for the wrong day. But why? Why not challenge the doctors about whether a later time of death was possible? Surely not just because they were worried about challenging a doctor.

Do you have a secondary source for that underlined part, or just Maxwells word for that? Like Hutchinsons.

[c.d.]

I can see these on the lowest rungs of society not burning wood, coal or dried horse manure until it is absolutely necessary. They will just go to bed, they normally did go to bed fully clothed, so with winter coming on the women especially will keep their clothes on.
What would necessitate Mary making a fire is if she is entertaining, the fire is more for the comfort of the client than anything else, and he is paying for it. Likewise, she is going to bed in a nightdress, or in her case a chemise.
Indications are that Mary was entertaining.

Exactly. And a comfortable client will hopefully be a repeat client.

c.d.

[etenguy]

Do you have a secondary source for that underlined part, or just Maxwells word for that? Like Hutchinsons.

Hi Michael

I accept Maxwell's statement, especially since she was able to explain how she knew MJK, was a neighbour and was able to describe some circumstances of MJK's life.

[Fleetwood Mac]

What would necessitate Mary making a fire is if she is entertaining, the fire is more for the comfort of the client than anything else, and he is paying for it. Likewise, she is going to bed in a nightdress, or in her case a chemise.

Does anybody know where the spark came from to start this fire? There was nothing found in Mary's room that would generate a spark as far as I can tell.

[The Rookie Detective]

Can anyone explain why MJK's death certificate states that she was murdered in the room Julia Venturney was lodging in at 1 Miller's Court?

Why didn't the death certificate state 13 Miller's Court?

Rather odd


RD

[etenguy]

Can anyone explain why MJK's death certificate states that she was murdered in the room Julia Venturney was lodging in at 1 Miller's Court?

Why didn't the death certificate state 13 Miller's Court?

Rather oddRD

Hi RD

I am not sure if that is a mistake or whether the individual room numbers in the building were not officially recognised as separate addresses with the building address being number 1. Someone more knowledgeable might be able to explain.

As a result of your post, I looked at the death certificate and there is another anomaly with the address of death. The address is described as being in Christchurch - I wasn't aware that part of Whitechapel was described as christchurch, unless it is another mistake. In addition, it struck me odd that they described MJK's profession as prostitute, the other victims were not described this way.

[Abby Normal]

Does anybody know where the spark came from to start this fire? There was nothing found in Mary's room that would generate a spark as far as I can tell.

matches? would they be so innocuous an item as to be left off the polices list? anyway the killer probably took them.

[Wickerman]

Does anybody know where the spark came from to start this fire? There was nothing found in Mary's room that would generate a spark as far as I can tell.

The poor Victorians had a thing called a Tinder Box, probably it was shared among the tenants, or McCarthy might have one.
Didn't she have a half-burned candle in her room too?
Perhaps she relied on the client lighting the fire, afterall it was for his benefit.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD

I am not sure if that is a mistake or whether the individual room numbers in the building were not officially recognised as separate addresses with the building address being number 1. Someone more knowledgeable might be able to explain.

As a result of your post, I looked at the death certificate and there is another anomaly with the address of death. The address is described as being in Christchurch - I wasn't aware that part of Whitechapel was described as christchurch, unless it is another mistake. In addition, it struck me odd that they described MJK's profession as prostitute, the other victims were not described this way.

I must admit that I hadn't noticed about the Christchurch reference.

I'm assuming it's referring to the Christ Church Spitalfields. which is just across the road and only a few yards from Miller's Court.

I agree though as the area of 'Christchurch' usually refers to Christchurch, Southwark, which is just south of the Thames.

It should have read Spitalfields or Whitechapel as the area.

MJK was buried in a Catholic Cemetery on Leyton so I'm guessing she was Catholic. The nearest Catholic church from Millers Court would have been the R.C Church on Whites Row, just south of Dorset Street, running parallel.

And I also feel the term "Prostitute" stated on the death certificate, is perhaps inappropriate for a Death Certificate and I would have imagined the term "Unfortunate" would have been much better to use than the word "Prostitute"


RD

[Fleetwood Mac]

matches? would they be so innocuous an item as to be left off the polices list?

As good an idea as any, Abby.

The items include bread, a farthing dip, and a candle and so matches wouldn't be any more innocuous than those.

The problem is that I'm not sure which items the police mentioned and which items were mentioned by newspaper reporters and the like, i.e. was there ever an intention to list all of the items in Mary's room?

[Fleetwood Mac]

The poor Victorians had a thing called a Tinder Box, probably it was shared among the tenants, or McCarthy might have one.
Didn't she have a half-burned candle in her room too?
Perhaps she relied on the client lighting the fire, afterall it was for his benefit.

I think I prefer Abby's suggestion.

The beauty of matches was that a fire could be lit quickly and efficiently, unlike any alternative, and they were cheap and readily available. Obviously, the candle would need a spark from somewhere.

I've never been fully convinced that Jack lit the fire nor that it was his benefit alone, but that's another thing.

You could know the answer to this one, Jon, given all of the reading you've done: did the police ever set out to make a full inventory of Mary's room? As far as I can tell, the items we know that were in Mary's room, have come from both police and press reports, with press reports mentioning some items that the police didn't.

[etenguy]

The problem is that I'm not sure which items the police mentioned and which items were mentioned by newspaper reporters and the like, i.e. was there ever an intention to list all of the items in Mary's room?

Abberline stated that he had made a list of everything in the room but that list seems to be lost to history.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Abberline stated that he had made a list of everything in the room but that list seems to be lost to history.

I see. We don't know what was in the room that could have been used to light the fire.

[Michael W Richards]

I asked Sam Flynn years ago about that fire and he told me that often poor people who did have access to a fireplace or something to contain a small fire used dried horse dung to start it. It was free, all over the place, and it worked well enough for that purpose. Since the items found in the fireplace, (Abberline and his men sifted the ashes again Saturday morning), were only partially consumed by flame it seems to indicate that they were placed on an existing fire that had died down. Its worth remembering these things... Mary and Maria were in that room together all afternoon, Maria had clients laundry to wash, some of which were found in that room, folded, that the room had access to a pump just outside the window to the alcove, and that Mary has a washtub, seen under her bed in the photos taken. I believe its entirely possible, since Maria does give Mary a coin before she left, that Maria and Mary used a fire to boil water for the wash.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I asked Sam Flynn years ago about that fire and he told me that often poor people who did have access to a fireplace or something to contain a small fire used dried horse dung to start it. It was free, all over the place, and it worked well enough for that purpose. Since the items found in the fireplace, (Abberline and his men sifted the ashes again Saturday morning), were only partially consumed by flame it seems to indicate that they were placed on an existing fire that had died down. Its worth remembering these things... Mary and Maria were in that room together all afternoon, Maria had clients laundry to wash, some of which were found in that room, folded, that the room had access to a pump just outside the window to the alcove, and that Mary has a washtub, seen under her bed in the photos taken. I believe its entirely possible, since Maria does give Mary a coin before she left, that Maria and Mary used a fire to boil water for the wash.

I've always thought it a decent chance that the fire was burning to an extent while Mary was out.

We know that in the Victorian era these people's rooms/houses were freezing. This was November.

Mary Cox goes home to warm her hands for a few minutes. On what? Her room would have been freezing without a fire.

Mary Cox saw a light in Mary's room as Blotchy and Mary went inside, we are told by journalists (I think, 'can't quite remember) that Mary's room was barely illuminated by a candle. Mary Cox infers that the light was of a nature that she would have been able to see into Mary's room had the blinds not being down. Would a candle have been sufficient given what reporters said?

And then, we don't leave a fire burning while we're out because we have central heating. In Victorian times, even the wealthy had freezing homes which is why they put on so many layers, including stockings and the like.