Room 13 Miller's Court

[Sam Flynn]

Barnett after not finding the key probably punched the window in to open the door.

I don't think he'd have punched both panes, though, Mitch. Whether he punched one pane out or two, he'd most probably have incurred a nasty injury.

Note that McCarthy seems to have known about the broken window before the murder, and I daresay he'd have had the fragments cleared away in the interim by Bowyer, Barnett or Kelly - if not done it himself. There was certainly plenty of time between the glass-breaking incident and Kelly's murder for a clean-up to have happened.

[Chava]

However that window got broken, if it was being used as a method of getting into the room on a frequent basis, I don't understand why Barnett or Kelly didn't punch out the rest of the glass carefully to make sure they didn't rip an artery on the way into the room. There was no reason not to. There was a bloody great hole there already, so security clearly wasn't a major issue.

[Rob Clack]

There were two later murders that I'm aware of, 26 November 1898 the murder of Elizabeth Roberts by Kate Marshall which was on the first floor back. The Divisional Surgeon Franklin Hewitt Oliver described the windows "both the top and bottom panes were broken in the window"

The other murder was Kitty Ronan on 2 July 1909. P.C. Harry Woodley placed the room as first floor front room, No. 12, Miller's Court. Interestingly Detective Inspector Wensley said the room was at the top of the house.

Rob

[Celesta]

This apartment has a lonely, empty, look and, if you'll pardon me, feel. Why could the photo not have been taken between tenants, after MJK's murder? If that's the case, some street kids could have broken the upper window. Perhaps the photographer was asked to go back and get the exterior because it would help in a later inquiry.

As Stewart says, the police would have no reason to have such a photo, but what if they were being careful to record everything? So little evidence was available to them. Logically, it would seem the photo plate would have been made the day she was discovered, after everyone had cleared out. I know it's an old photo, but it looks late in the day to me.

The window in Prater's room also appears to be broken and stuffed with a rag. McCarthy must have been a hell of a landlord.

Or could the lower window break date to Mary's time and the upper window break to the time of another tenant.

[Celesta]

Reasons to at least question the accepted wisdom on this photograph include the the fact that it was located in the possession of the City Police and not the Metropolitan Police (where it should have been) and there were later serious crimes at the same location.

Nothing changed in the turf layout of the two police forces, did it? I never heard of such, but I'm no expert. I know there was a hullabaloo about where the inquest was held, as the crime did not occur in that district. If a crime occurred at #13 at a later date and that crime related to crimes in the City Police turf, then the City guys might have had the photo made.

[steje73]

Is it possible that the key was lost while the door was open and therefore couldn't be locked. Then if they had a bolt put on high up they could have reached it via the top window.

[Mitch Rowe]

I don't think he'd have punched both panes, though, Mitch. Whether he punched one pane out or two, he'd most probably have incurred a nasty injury.

Note that McCarthy seems to have known about the broken window before the murder, and I daresay he'd have had the fragments cleared away in the interim by Bowyer, Barnett or Kelly - if not done it himself. There was certainly plenty of time between the glass-breaking incident and Kelly's murder for a clean-up to have happened.

Indeed.. Why two panes? If I am correct in assuming the key was lost around the same time the window was broken the most logical answer is that the window was broken to gain entry. Somehow I dont see McCarthy as too concerned about broken glass. Either on the ground or in a window frame. Although he could have told Mary or Barnett to clean it up and buy a new window. Then after cleaning they could not afford the window pane. I would expect then, people being lazy that some pieces of glass would just be swept towards the wall beneath the window.

Conerning the punching. Yes..One would expect some form of injury. In modern times punching with a bare fist could be expected while drunk and mad. But back then it may mean death. Barnett could have wrapped his hand in coat or shirt.

But we are back to the question of why two windows and why not break the pane completely out?

Considering Franklin Hewitt Oliver mentions both top and bottom windows I think it is very possible the photo is NOT from 1888. In fact it seems likely it was taken 1898. I am unfamiliar with the Kate Marshall murder but if anything involving broken windows was relevant in any way to the case then I think we can assume the picture was taken around that time.

Thes are all just guesses but what else is there to do but guess.

[Mitch Rowe]

Nothing changed in the turf layout of the two police forces, did it? I never heard of such, but I'm no expert. I know there was a hullabaloo about where the inquest was held, as the crime did not occur in that district. If a crime occurred at #13 at a later date and that crime related to crimes in the City Police turf, then the City guys might have had the photo made.

Good question. Was the murder of Kate Marshall involving city police in any manner? Or any other cases wich would have more likelyhood than MJKs case to have involved city police?

If not then we can assume the pic was taken shortly after MJKs death.

[Sam Flynn]

But we are back to the question of why two windows and why not break the pane completely out?

I dunno, Mitch - they had their reasons for not doing so, and we'll never know. Perhaps they decided it was easier to plug a hole in a window with newspaper or rags, than to stuff the entire frame.

Let's not forget that, just because it was possible to reach through the hole and draw back the bolt, that Joe and Mary did so every time they were out. They might just as easily have left the door "on the latch" most of the time, only resorting to the window trick if they'd (inadvertently or purposely) allowed the door to lock on their way out. Let's face it - they didn't have much worth stealing anyway.

[Fisherman]

Steje73 asks:
"Wasn't one of the photos taken through a window?"

There is a snippet to read from the Times of Nov 10:th that seems to strengthen this supposition. It goes like this:

"Superintendent Arnold were also sent for. During this time the door had not been touched. On the arrival of the Superintendent Arnold he caused a telegram to be sent direct to Sir Charles Warren, informing him what had happened.

Mr Arnold, having satisfied himself that the woman was dead, ordered one of the windows to be entirely removed. A horrible and sickening sight then presented itself. The poor woman lay on her back on the bed, entirely naked. Her throat was cut from ear to ear, right down to the spinal column. The ears and nose had been cut clean off. The breasts had also been cleanly cut off and placed on a table which was by the side of the bed. The stomach and abdomen had been ripped open, while the face was slashed about, so that the features of the poor creature were beyond all recognition. The kidneys and heart had also been removed from the body, and placed on the table by the side of the breasts. The liver had likewise been removed, and laid on the right thigh The lower portion of the body and the uterus had been cut out, and these appeared to be missing. The thighs had been cut. A more horrible or sickening sight could not be imagined. The clothes of the woman were lying by the side of the bed, as though they had been taken off and laid down in the ordinary manner. While this examination was being made a photographer, who, in the meantime, had been sent for, arrived and took photographs of the body, the organs, the room, and its contents. Superintendent Arnold then had the door of the room forced."

Arnold arrived at the scene at about 1.20, and at 1.30 he ordered McCarthy to use his pick-axe on the door. It would seem that his order to remove one of the windows preceded that of tearing the door down, and thus the photo of Mary on the bed may have been taken through the place where the window formerly was.
We also know, from an illustration in the "Illustrated Police News" in November of -88, that the windows of the room were boarded up. This probably came about a short time after the investigation, to lock peoples curiosity out from the room.

Taken together, this seems to point to that photo being taken before the window was taken out, leaving us a rough estimation of the photo being taken at about 1.30.
At that time of day, in November, the sun would have travveled from it´s initial rising point in east-southeast, passing it´s zenith, but still being rather high up on the sky. It would, though, have travelled over towards the west-soutwesternly part of the sky.
Meaning what?
Meaning that the shadows should still be more or less directly under the items producing them, but also meaning that we should have light on the inner eastern walls of the windows (to the left in the picture). And if you take a look at Stewart Evans´photos, this all is perfectly evident. The shadows under the windowsills (is that the correct name??) is more or less directly under them, and the eastern inner walls of the windows are lit by the sun.

This, I feel, points very clearly to the the photo being taken by the photographer who worked at Arnolds side that day, and at that very time. In all probability, we are dealing with the real stuff here. And Mary is lying behind them windows as the picture is taken.

The best, all!
Fisherman

[jason_c]

I dunno, Mitch - they had their reasons for not doing so, and we'll never know. Perhaps they decided it was easier to plug a hole in a window with newspaper or rags, than to stuff the entire frame.

Let's not forget that, just because it was possible to reach through the hole and draw back the bolt, that Joe and Mary did so every time they were out. They might just as easily have left the door "on the latch" most of the time, only resorting to the window trick if they'd (inadvertently or purposely) allowed the door to lock on their way out. Let's face it - they didn't have much worth stealing anyway.

Thats the way I see it. It would have been a nuisance to perform the window trick every time they entered the room.

Havent read all this thread but I recently was told of an incident concerning a colleague of mines, which may be relevant to the police action that day. Said colleague's ex girlfriend attempted suicide, police arrive at house and smash the front door in - only to find door was already unlocked.

[Celesta]

Here's a close-up of the ground in the yard below the windows -

[ATTACH]1453[/ATTACH]

Hi Stewart, I'm glad you posted this one, also. There was a discussion a while back about what this object was. I had thought it was a flat, similar to what they used to put Cokes in. Note that I'm not implying there were Cokes in that day. Now, with the blow-up, we can see that it is some sort of large pan or tray. There was some speculation on the tray being something a photographer would use. Thanks!
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BTW folks, I don't mean to divert the thread onto this object, so let's not do it, if we can avoid it.

[Rob Clack]

Hi Mitch,

I should point out that first floor back would be second floor back in America. I:E Kelly's room was ground floor back so Elizabeth Roberts was murdered in the room above.

Hi Celesta,

Police boundaries wouldn't have been an issue as Dorset Street was always 'H Division', The City Police would not have been involved in Elizabeth Roberts or Kitty Ronans murders. The reason they would been at Millers Court for Kelly's murder would be because of there involvement with Catherine Eddowes.
The Inquest were all held in the correct locations as far as I am aware.

Rob

[Chris Scott]

Here's the best I've been able to do with the upper broken pane

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

The passageway into Millers Court ran south-north. The door to Room 13 faced west. The windows faced north. The sun is to the south. Look at the angle of the shadow cast on the wall to the right of the door. With a little experimentation (I used an anglepoise lamp to approximate the sun's position) you will discover that the photo could only have been taken towards the end of the afternoon, with the sun into the west.

Regards,

Simon