Room 13 Miller's Court

[Rob Clack]

There were two later murders that I'm aware of, 26 November 1898 the murder of Elizabeth Roberts by Kate Marshall which was on the first floor back. The Divisional Surgeon Franklin Hewitt Oliver described the windows "both the top and bottom panes were broken in the window"

The other murder was Kitty Ronan on 2 July 1909. P.C. Harry Woodley placed the room as first floor front room, No. 12, Miller's Court. Interestingly Detective Inspector Wensley said the room was at the top of the house.

Rob

[Chava]

However that window got broken, if it was being used as a method of getting into the room on a frequent basis, I don't understand why Barnett or Kelly didn't punch out the rest of the glass carefully to make sure they didn't rip an artery on the way into the room. There was no reason not to. There was a bloody great hole there already, so security clearly wasn't a major issue.

[Sam Flynn]

Barnett after not finding the key probably punched the window in to open the door.

I don't think he'd have punched both panes, though, Mitch. Whether he punched one pane out or two, he'd most probably have incurred a nasty injury.

Note that McCarthy seems to have known about the broken window before the murder, and I daresay he'd have had the fragments cleared away in the interim by Bowyer, Barnett or Kelly - if not done it himself. There was certainly plenty of time between the glass-breaking incident and Kelly's murder for a clean-up to have happened.

[Mitch Rowe]

What I dont see is any broken glass beneath the window. If indeed the photo was taken shorltly after MJKs death. And if indeed the window was broken a few weeks before that. And if indeed there is no broken glass outside the window. Then either the broken glass was cleaned meticulously or the window was broken from the outside in.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the night of the fight something happened to the key. Mary may have gotten p*ssed and threw the key at Barnett as she walked away. Barnett after not finding the key probably punched the window in to open the door.

[steje73]

Wasn't one of the photos taken through a window? If that's right do we know which one by the angle of the bed etc.?

[Jenni Shelden]

Hey Stewart,

no it's not confusing as you summed it up quite adequately there, and indeed were getting at what i thought you were getting at!

Jenni

[Sam Flynn]

It looks as if the bottom window pushes up from the inside.

Perhaps it had long-since seized up, or was nailed/screwed down, Mike.

[The Good Michael]

It looks as if the bottom window pushes up from the inside. If the panes are broken, why would there be a need to latch the window. Perhaps the killer simply lifted it up and came out, pulling it closed behind him. He could have entered the same way. Perhaps I am looking at an optical illusion, however, and there is no such division into upper and lower windows.

Unfortunately, I have no Ripper books with me in ROK and must go on memory and what I find on Casebook, but I don't recall anything about a latched window. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that (I'm sure you will).

Mike

[Stewart P Evans]

Confusing

Stewart,
I think I follow what you are saying, however, what i think i would like to know is exactly where the photgraph was in fact found.
Would the City Police have needed a picture of it if (as you seem to suggest) it was taken at the time of one of the later murders
or am i just not following.

Jenni, no, the City Police, theoretically, would have no need to possess such a photograph at all, although we must bear in mind that they did have the photograph of Kelly's body on the bed which is obviously what made Don believe that they are connected and that the City may have provided the photographer. This makes Don's argument valid and reasonable but the outside view of the room was a glass plate negative and not a photograph. That said, a glass plate negative he found with the Room 13 shot was of Metropolitan policemen of about 1870. Confusing, isn't it? Personally I tend to the belief that it does show Room 13 Miller's Court at about the time of the murder.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stewart,

An excellent point and one well worth considering. Mea culpa.

One other observation about the photo. Judging from the deformation of the brick corner pillar [it's not camera distortion] I'll bet the door to Room 13 didn't close too snugly.

Regards,

Simon

[Jenni Shelden]

Stewart,

I think I follow what you are saying, however, what i think i would like to know is exactly where the photgraph was in fact found.

Would the City Police have needed a picture of it if (as you seem to suggest) it was taken at the time of one of the later murders

or am i just not following.

[Stewart P Evans]

Question

Reasons to at least question the accepted wisdom on this photograph include the the fact that it was located in the possession of the City Police and not the Metropolitan Police (where it should have been) and there were later serious crimes at the same location.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks for these, Stewart

Here's a close-up of the second window -

[ATTACH]1450[/ATTACH]

...I'd never noticed that curtain, seemingly made of a thick, whitish material, behind the glass on the left-hand side, before. Compare and contrast the window nearest the door, which (as we might expect from the story) seems to have no such curtain.

[halomanuk]

It does seem coincidental that the photo captures the windows (both with broken panes) and the door etc.

It looks like a professional photo for the time so i cant see any real reason why they would take a photo of 13 Millers Court for anything but by the police.

The broken window panes just nearly convince me - but who knows ??

[Stewart P Evans]

Doubts

Surely there must be doubts as to whether this was taken in 1888 or not?