Room 13 Miller's Court

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Fisherman and Sam,

Somewhere I've got the sun's position and angles etc for November 9th 1888. I'll see if I can dig them out.

Here's a shot of the sun, as seen from London at nearly midday on 9th Nov 1888:



The horizon is shown in green, and the sun is 21° 37' above it. As the afternoon wore on the sun got lower and lower in the sky as it headed westwards. Even if it had been higher in the sky, it's worth noting that the sun was then almost due south - in other words, it wouldn't have been favourably placed to have been casting shadows in Miller's Court.

I would be more than happy to stand corrected on this. I normally use this software to see what's going on "up there", rather than to find out what shapes are being cast on the ground!

[Tom_Wescott]

It never occurred to me that these pictures might not be a) of Mary Kelly's house or b) Might have been taken years after Kelly's murder. This is mainly due to the fact that I'm slow in the head. But there are other reasons as well: the building in the photo is identical to contemporary drawings, the very visible (although not in the images on this thread) holes in the window are in the right place and would have been fixed before the next tenants moved in. The windows were boarded up after Kelly's body was moved out so this photo would seem to have been taken prior to the removal of Kelly's body. It also seems from press reports that the photographer on the scene took many photographs, mainly indoor but also out door. Here's a clipping from the Irish Times of Nov. 10th:

Previous to the post-mortem examination, a photographer, who was brought on the scene only after considerable difficulty and delay, was set to work, with a view to obtaining permanent evidence as to the state of the room, the condition of the body, and other points, trivial perhaps, but possibly important, which have heretofore been too much neglected in the investigation of the series of crimes of which to-day's horror is surely the climax. The state of the atmosphere was unfortunately not favourable to good results. A slight drizzling rain was falling, the air was dusky, even in the open thoroughfare, and in the little court it was at times almost dark, especially inside the miserable houses. The photographer, however, did his best, and succeeded in securing several negatives, which he hopes will be useful.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman and Sam,

Somewhere I've got the sun's position and angles etc for November 9th 1888. I'll see if I can dig them out.

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Prater lived at the front of the house over 'the shed', not above Kelly.

There's compelling evidence to that effect, Stephen

[Celesta]

Hi Mitch,

I should point out that first floor back would be second floor back in America. I:E Kelly's room was ground floor back so Elizabeth Roberts was murdered in the room above.

Hi Celesta,

Police boundaries wouldn't have been an issue as Dorset Street was always 'H Division', The City Police would not have been involved in Elizabeth Roberts or Kitty Ronans murders. The reason they would been at Millers Court for Kelly's murder would be because of there involvement with Catherine Eddowes.
The Inquest were all held in the correct locations as far as I am aware.

Rob

Thanks, Rob. In regards to the boundaries, that's what I thought. I was sure that I read that there was a to-do about where the inquest was held, but I'm probably having a memory lacuna.

I wonder, could it have been possible that the MET also had a copy of this photo, but it was destroyed in the Blitz?

As for the shadows, would a long view of the flat be more useful? There don't seem to be many strong shadows. It looks late in the day on a rather gloomy day.

Best,

Celesta

[Sam Flynn]

Simon, your pic does not come through on my computer! Sam´s did, however, and the shadow he is talking about is the same one that I meant - that shaded triangle shows an outline that points to the sun being rather high up in the sky.

...which I don't think it could have been on 9th November 1888, Fish - late Spring or Summer, perhaps, but not late Autumn/early Winter surely?

[Fisherman]

Simon, your pic does not come through on my computer! Sam´s did, however, and the shadow he is talking about is the same one that I meant - that shaded triangle shows an outline that points to the sun being rather high up in the sky.


The best,
Fisherman

[Stephen Thomas]

There's a contemporary illustration showing just the bottom pane broken.

Prater lived at the front of the house over 'the shed', not above Kelly.

A good suggestion, Mike, although I believe it's on record that both panes were broken during the same fight.

And I think I know what crashed through the bottom pane. By careful enhancement, I can finally solve one of the enduring mysteries of Miller's Court:

[ATTACH]1473[/ATTACH]

Ok.....You had me laughing out loud Sam. Gotta fly...Moms a Birthday girl today.

Cheers Gareth.

[JSchmidt]

After fiddling around like 10 minutes with GIMP, I'm pretty sure that either a) my eyes are really worse than I thought or b) there is no hole in the bottom pane. Looks more like someone removed grime from it to see through, there are no ragged but angular shapes like in the upper pane.

[Sam Flynn]

Perhaps the upper pane was broken during the fight, and the lower of necessity due to the lost key?

A good suggestion, Mike, although I believe it's on record that both panes were broken during the same fight.

And I think I know what crashed through the bottom pane. By careful enhancement, I can finally solve one of the enduring mysteries of Miller's Court:

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

This is the shadow I was talking about—running at an angle from the edge of the archway down past the right hand top corner of the door arch.



It can only be cast with the sun well into the west.

Hi Sam,

Yes, the shadow in the corner of the doorway completely contradicts the results of the experiment in my super-secret underground research laboratory.

Oh why is nothing in this damn case straightforward? Whoever put this mystery together was a genius.

Regards,

Simon

Perhaps the upper pane was broken during the fight, and the lower of necessity due to the lost key?

Cheers.

[Sam Flynn]

The passageway into Millers Court ran south-north. The door to Room 13 faced west. The windows faced north. The sun is to the south. Look at the angle of the shadow cast on the wall to the right of the door. With a little experimentation (I used an anglepoise lamp to approximate the sun's position) you will discover that the photo could only have been taken towards the end of the afternoon, with the sun into the west.

Indeed, Simon - good call. However, the problem is that the further west the sun went the lower it gets in the sky. After 2PM the sun would then have around 19° above the horizon and sinking. Even at its zenith that day, the sun wouldn't have crept much higher than 21°. Check the shadow cast on the bricks at the far side of the porch/doorway:



Surely that's too steep an angle for such a low-lying sun? The same appears to be true of the shadow of the smaller window-frame on the curtains:



Am I going mad, or would these shadows require the sun to have been much higher in the sky than the 9th November 1888 would allow?

[Chris Scott]

This is what I make of the broken pane cleaned up (the image that is, not the window!)