Room 13 Miller's Court

[Dave O]

Hi Rob,

I believe the source is Chris Scott's transcription of the Whitechapel Infirmary records? That puts Bushman there in June 1888, I think. I don't know whether there is anything putting her there in November. I didn't look up Clark.

[Nemo]

It is uncertain whether Kitty Ronan's room was in 26 Dorset St or in No.12 at the other side of the pump from Mary's room.

There is a report which stated Prater's room overlooked Dorset St

I am pretty certain that Prater's room cannot conclusively be placed over No.13

Why would early press reports state that a number of residents of the court heard the "Murder" cry at 2am and Prater when asked said she had heard nothing?

[The Grave Maurice]

Prater didn't reject the possibility that a copper could have been in Miller's Court

Sorry, I meant to say Cox, not Prater. Didn't catch it in time to do an edit.

[perrymason]

It is uncertain whether Kitty Ronan's room was in 26 Dorset St or in No.12 at the other side of the pump from Mary's room.

There is a report which stated Prater's room overlooked Dorset St

I am pretty certain that Prater's room cannot conclusively be placed over No.13

Why would early press reports state that a number of residents of the court heard the "Murder" cry at 2am and Prater when asked said she had heard nothing?

Hi Nemo,

Which early press reports say that the "oh-murder" heard by Sarah Lewis AND Elizabeth Prater at approximately 3:45am was actually a cry of "murder" that Elizabeth didnt hear at 2am?

At the Inquest she describes it as "faintish", ..and "as from the court", and Sarah Lewis describes it as "loud" and "as if at the door"....both which would lead to a conclusion that the voice was probably emanating from the courtyard and from outside or opposite the Keylers courtyard door...which was Room 13.

A photo clearly shows a window facing the courtyard above Marys and on the archway across to Number 27. No matter where precisely Elizabeth was located, there seems to be a case that could be made for courtyard noise entering via either of those windows.

Best regards

[perrymason]

Ive always been curious whether that cry was Marys...or from another woman who saw something that frightened her.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Hmm, it seems I may be altering my original idea, since the majority of the press versions I have seen DO in fact say Prater lived over Kelly's room.

Hi Rob,

I note that actually only one of those reports you quoted said "in the room below her", and that's the (précis, rather than verbatim) version given by the St James Gazette. It gets some vague support from the Times - NB, also a précis - but all that says is that she lived "just over" Kelly's room.

This "just over" ties in with a report in the Star of 10th Nov, which quotes Prater thus: "She [Kelly] lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which is almost over hers". Why use the word "almost", if she didn't really say it? And, if she really said it, she herself is telling us that her room wasn't "directly" over Kelly's. This, in turn, is congruent with reports of her room being at the first floor front, and over the shed (sourced from a third newspaper - the Telegraph - in separate editions, under different circumstances, and on two separate days).

Excellent drawing/plan of the Court, by the way - even though I'm reasonably sure that Room 20, as depicted, had in fact moved south for the Winter

[Stephen Thomas]

I'm still uncertain as to where Liz Prater was exactly, but I would tend to go with the majority of the reports that say she was directly over Mary.

There is a newspaper sketch of Kitty Ronan's murder somewhere on the boards here (there was anyway) and it seems to suggest that the door to Liz's room was on the left of the staircase, which would put her directly above Mary. Of course we all know what newspaper sketches can be like, but it does agree with most of the reports.

Hi Jane

The majority of the reports definitely do not say that Prater lived directly above Kelly. Even Prater herself never said she lived directly above Kelly. There are just two (or three, maximum) reports that say she lived in 'the' room above Kelly or that Kelly lived in 'the' room below her which led earlier writers to assume that her room was directly above Kelly's. However we now have quite specific newspaper reports that place her at the front of the house on the floor above. To conflate some reports Prater says 'I live in Room #20 which is at the front of the house above the Shed and is just over/almost over the room of the deceased'. In 1898 when a murder took place in the room directly above #13 (not Kitty Ronan's murder) the room above was numbered #19.

Best wishes

[Nemo]

Ive always been curious whether that cry was Marys...or from another woman who saw something that frightened her.

Best regards all.

...or whether the cry was made at all

Here are some of the relevant reports including Prater's room being at the front of the house (overlooking Dorset St. proper...


The Star
LONDON. SATURDAY, 10 NOVEMBER, 1888.

A HUNDRED HIGHLY CIRCUMSTANTIAL STORIES,

which, when carefully sifted, prove to be totally devoid of truth. One

woman (as reported below) who lives in the court stated that at about

two o'clock she heard a cry of "Murder." This story soon became

popular, until at last half a dozen women were retailing it as their

own personal experience. Each story contradicted the others with

respect to the time at which the cry was heard. A Star reporter who

inquired into the matter extracted from one of the women the confession

that the story was, as far as she was concerned, a fabrication; and he

came to the conclusion that it was t0o be disregarded.


The Daily Telegraph
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 1888

Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room, was one

of those who saw the body through the window. She affirms that she

spoke to the deceased on Thursday. She knew that Kelly had been living

with a man, and that they had quarrelled about ten days since. It was a

common thing for the women living in these tenements to bring men home

with them. They could do so as they pleased. She had heard nothing

during the night, and was out betimes in the morning, and her attention

was not attracted to any circumstances of an unusual character.


Times (London)
Saturday, November 10, 1888

From enquiries made among person living in the houses adjoining the

court, and also those residing in rooms in No 26 it appears clear that

no noise of any kind was heard.


The Daily Telegraph
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 1888

Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room, was one

of those who saw the body through the window. She affirms that she

spoke to the deceased on Thursday. She knew that Kelly had been living

with a man, and that they had quarrelled about ten days since. It was a

common thing for the women living in these tenements to bring men home

with them. They could do so as they pleased. She had heard nothing

during the night, and was out betimes in the morning, and her attention

was not attracted to any circumstances of an unusual character. Kelly

was, she admitted, one of her own class, and she made no secret of her

way of gaining a livelihood.


Times (London)
Saturday, November 10, 1888

About 1 o'clock yesterday morning a person living in the court opposite

to the room occupied by the woman heard her singing the song "Sweet

Violets," but this person is unable to say whether any one else was

with her at that time. Nothing more was seen or heard of her until her

dead body was found.

[Debra A]

Hi Jane

The majority of the reports definitely do not say that Prater lived directly above Kelly. Even Prater herself never said she lived directly above Kelly. There are just two (or three, maximum) reports that say she lived in 'the' room above Kelly or that Kelly lived in 'the' room below her which led earlier writers to assume that her room was directly above Kelly's. However we now have quite specific newspaper reports that place her at the front of the house on the floor above. To conflate some reports Prater says 'I live in Room #20 which is at the front of the house above the Shed and is just over/almost over the room of the deceased'. In 1898 when a murder took place in the room directly above #13 (not Kitty Ronan's murder) the room above was numbered #19.

Best wishes

Hi Stephen,
i was just rereading the 1898 Marshall case today. I hadn't noticed before a description of the arrangement of the rooms on the first floor. The murder took place in the back first floor room of #26, and then a witness goes on to describe how they occupied the first floor front room of #26 and had been alerted to the crime by banging on a partition wall. Another witness then describes the front room as being 9 feet away from the back room with a partitioned off spare room that sounds that it was somewhere in between. I wonder if this could have been Prater's old room...somewhere in the middle?

[Stephen Thomas]

The Daily Telegraph
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 1888

Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room

Exactly. Not the occupant of the first floor back room.

[perrymason]

Well Nemo,.. I am surprised to see so many flawed first accounts on Saturday morning, but the police did have the courtyard closed all afternoon to interview all the witnesses including Elizabeth, and they guarded the archway all night...so its likely we are talking second or third hand information from someone who knows someone who....

Both women testify as to the sound and the approximate timing...so unless there is collusion, you have an event that occurred.

Elizabeth Praters exact location above Marys room is not a crisis mode issue....as I mentioned we have physical evidence that on the second floor above Marys there is a window facing the alcove and thus the courtyard, and that on the archway, another one. Her being able to hear the cry and state she thought it "from the court" is then no huge challenge.....one window or more needs to be opened. Just how thick do you think the walls were?

EP's exact location of her room is only really relevant when she mentions being able to hear Mary move about in room 13 sometimes.

She heard a voice cry out at approximately 3:45..as Sarah did....and Elizabeth thought it from the courtyard...and also evidently, she thought it unworthy of further investigation....and Sarah didnt even open the door to peek out and check.

Best regards all.

[robhouse]

It seems to me that Prater's room was likely over the shed, but I am still pretty confused over all of this.

Rob H

[robhouse]

I will gladly keep updating this as long as people keep supplying fresh info...

RH

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Stephen,
i was just rereading the 1898 Marshall case today. I hadn't noticed before a description of the arrangement of the rooms on the first floor. The murder took place in the back first floor room of #26, and then a witness goes on to describe how they occupied the first floor front room of #26 and had been alerted to the crime by banging on a partition wall. Another witness then describes the front room as being 9 feet away from the back room with a partitioned off spare room that sounds that it was somewhere in between. I wonder if this could have been Prater's old room...somewhere in the middle?

Hi Debra

No, the middle room, originally the upstairs back parlour, was used as a store room and anyone living on the two top floors of #26 would have to pass through it to get to the stairwell so it couldn't be rented as a living room. Plus, the occupant of the first floor front room would have to go through it to get to their room so it was more of a corridor than a room really.

Best wishes

[Debra A]

Thanks Stephen, it did also say this spare room was used for lodgers with children! Was just a thought anyway...back to the drawing board.