Was MJK really Mary Thomas?

[erobitha]

In 1881, a 17 year old Mary Thomas was arrested and charged with stealing money from a client in a brothel in Newport, South Wales. 6.5 miles south of Risca. She was let off due to her age but the brothel keeper Haggarty was sent to prison.

[MrBarnett]

I can’t find their son, John, but the indexes show what appear to be births for their three daughters in Carmarthen (MMN Lloyd):


Elizabeth - June 1860

Mary - Dec 1863

Hannah - Sept 1866

[erobitha]

I can’t find their son, John, but the indexes show what appear to be births for their three daughters in Carmarthen (MMN Lloyd):


Elizabeth - June 1860

Mary - Dec 1863

Hannah - Sept 1866

That’s really useful - thanks!

[MrBarnett]

In 1881, a 17 year old Mary Thomas was arrested and charged with stealing money from a client in a brothel in Newport, South Wales. 6.5 miles south of Risca. She was let off due to her age but the brothel keeper Haggarty was sent to prison.

She was sentenced to two months hard labour wasn’t she?

[MrBarnett]

Harriett Haggerty was quite notorious in Newport. She ran a number of brothels there, and when she was imprisoned for receiving the stolen money from Mary Thomas her daughter, Mary Ann Rift, took over the running of them.

[erobitha]

She was sentenced to two months hard labour wasn’t she?

I saw in the local press that the judge spared her but I did see the prison record say two months hard labour. I’m actually at work so going from memory - all bits and pieces are on my home machine

[erobitha]

Something very strange has just cropped up in my research.

The young man James Davies (aged 18) who died in Risca was not married as we know.

I ordered his death certificate out of pure intrigue.

It was a mark for a 'Hannah Maria Thomas' claiming to be his mother on it.

Thomas is a common Welsh name I know, so I assumed there might be some link with my Mary Thomas. Maybe distant relatives of some kind.

Except I cannot find any matching births or census records that could support that. It does not seem to me any records can support what is on this certificate as being the case.

I'm a mere amateur when it comes to genealogy and any advice here would be most welcome.

[rjpalmer]

Something very strange has just cropped up in my research.

The young man James Davies (aged 18) who died in Risca was not married as we know.

I ordered his death certificate out of pure intrigue.

It was a mark for a 'Hannah Maria Thomas' claiming to be his mother on it.

Thomas is a common Welsh name I know, so I assumed there might be some link with my Mary Thomas. Maybe distant relatives of some kind.

Except I cannot find any matching births or census records that could support that. It does not seem to me any records can support what is on this certificate as being the case.

I'm a mere amateur when it comes to genealogy and any advice here would be most welcome.

Okay, I'll bite.

Check out this family living in Bedwellty in 1871, 9 miles north of Risca. Anne Davis or Davies is the head. (The family is Davies in 1851, 1861, and 1881, though it is spelled Davis here)

The unmarried daughter is named Hannah Davies, 22. Is this your Hannah Maria Thomas?

She has a son named James Davies, age 9. (Or presumably it is her son; 13 is a little young to have a child, but it happens and that's what it seems to imply).







Now check-out the brother Ezekiel in 1881. He's still in Bedwellty. There's a James Thomas living with him, listed as his brother-in-law, age 52. He only had one sister in 1871--Hannah, but he does show another sister Margaret in 1861.

That's as far as I've looked into it, but it would give you a Hannah Davies who may have hooked up with a much older man named Thomas by 1880 and had a son named James close enough to be the right age.

Unusual family if this is them, but who am I to judge? Dig a little deeper and maybe it will all come crashing down.

[rjpalmer]

Here's Ezekiel Davies in 1881.

You can see the brother-in-law James Thomas listed as a blacksmith foreman at a coal works.

Which leaves you to figure out what happened to Hannah Maria between 1880 and 1881.

Okay, lunch is over. Back to work.

[erobitha]

Okay, I'll bite.

Check out this family living in Bedwellty in 1871, 9 miles north of Risca. Anne Davis or Davies is the head. (The family is Davies in 1851, 1861, and 1881, though it is spelled Davis here)

The unmarried daughter is named Hannah Davies, 22. Is this your Hannah Maria Thomas?

She has a son named James Davies, age 9. (Or presumably it is her son; 13 is a little young to have a child, but it happens and that's what it seems to imply).







Now check-out the brother Ezekiel in 1881. He's still in Bedwellty. There's a James Thomas living with him, listed as his brother-in-law, age 52. He only had one sister in 1871--Hannah, but he does show another sister Margaret in 1861.

That's as far as I've looked into it, but it would give you a Hannah Davies who may have hooked up with a much older man named Thomas by 1880 and had a son named James close enough to be the right age.

Unusual family if this is them, but who am I to judge? Dig a little deeper and maybe it will all come crashing down.

I appreciate the advice RJ. A surprising source, but none the less I appreciate the assistance.

I shall follow the breadcrumbs and see where it takes me.

[rjpalmer]

I don't envy your task.

As you already know, throw a rock in Wales and you'll hit someone named Davies and when it bounces it will land near someone named Thomas.

Odds are James Thomas was Ezekiel's wife's brother, I imagine, rather than the husband of an absent sister. There's also an Ezekiel Davies who married a woman named Esther Thomas in 1871, but the first name is wrong to be Edith.

Good luck.

[erobitha]

I don't envy your task.

As you already know, throw a rock in Wales and you'll hit someone named Davies and when it bounces it will land near someone named Thomas.

Odds are James Thomas was Ezekiel's wife's brother, I imagine, rather than the husband of an absent sister. There's also an Ezekiel Davies who married a woman named Esther Thomas in 1871, but the first name is wrong to be Edith.

Good luck.

I've probably already got quite a sizeable skull fracture from banging my head against the brick wall conveniently beside me, following Davies and Thomas's down various rabbit holes. In for a penny at this stage.

Could there be any way possible that someone could sign someone's death certificate that was not who they said they were?

Thanks again for the advice.

[rjpalmer]

Could there be any way possible that someone could sign someone's death certificate that was not who they said they were?

I'm either missing something, or I don't grasp your point. Why don't you think the woman on the death certificate is really his mother? Isn't that unlikely?

If the son's name is Davies, and his mother's name is Thomas, doesn't that simply imply that she remarried at some point, that is, if she was ever married to begin with?

In theory, the Hannah Davies with the son James Davies, age 9, living in Bedwellty in 1871 could be them. He's 9 in 1871, so he'd be 18 in 1880--the same age as the James Davies on the death certificate.

Now just find a Hannah Davies who married a bloke named Thomas sometime between 1871 and 1880.

In fact, there is a woman who did that in the 1st Qrt 1877. And the marriage was registered in Bedwellty.



The husband's name appears to be William Thomas. That would make her Hannah Thomas in 1880.

I'm sure you have already figured this out on your own, but when you get the results for one of these marriage searches, and it spits out several names, it is not always clear who married whom, so you need to try to find the couples in the next available census, in order to confirm. I quickly chased down a Henry Lewis living in the area and his young wife was named Charlotte. It's pretty certain that this is them, so, on the above list, Henry married Charlotte Price. That leaves Hannah Davies having married William Thomas.

This doesn't absolutely prove this is the woman on the death certificate, but it's a fairly decent conjecture so far, and dovetails with the Hannah Davies with the son in Bedwellty in 1871.

[erobitha]

I'm either missing something, or I don't grasp your point. Why don't you think the woman on the death certificate is really his mother? Isn't that unlikely?

If the son's name is Davies, and his mother's name is Thomas, doesn't that simply imply that she remarried at some point, that is, if she was ever married to begin with?

In theory, the Hannah Davies with the son James Davies, age 9, living in Bedwellty in 1871 could be them. He's 9 in 1871, so he'd be 18 in 1880--the same age as the James Davies on the death certificate.

Now just find a Hannah Davies who married a bloke named Thomas sometime between 1871 and 1880.

In fact, there is a woman who did that in the 1st Qrt 1877. And the marriage was registered in Bedwellty.



The husband's name appears to be William Thomas. That would make her Hannah Thomas in 1880.

I'm sure you have already figured this out on your own, but when you get the results for one of these marriage searches, and it spits out several names, it is not always clear who married whom, so you need to try to find the couples in the next available census, in order to confirm. I quickly chased down a Henry Lewis living in the area and his young wife was named Charlotte. It's pretty certain that this is them, so, on the above list, Henry married Charlotte Price. That leaves Hannah Davies having married William Thomas.

This doesn't absolutely prove this is the woman on the death certificate, but it's a fairly decent conjecture so far, and dovetails with the Hannah Davies with the son in Bedwellty in 1871.

I hadn’t actually got this far, but the advice is actually really useful for going forward.

Again most appreciated for the tips and leads.

[Wickerman]

Excuse me, can I just tap your brains Erobitha, RJ, anyone ?
As you are also familiar with the census forms, have you come across a form where one line is blacked out, but a note in the line says: The Record is Officially Closed.

Do you happen to know what kind of reasons would there be for this?