Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Bridewell]

No-one Went Missing

Has anyone tried to trace the other names that are associated with the women who supposedly stayed in the room? Did any of them have a history that abruptly stopped in the fall of 1888?

Hi Rivkah,

I think that is the nub of it. Tecs's post was excellent, well-structured and well-argued. Having said that, anyone who was staying in Kelly's room, and in her bed, would presumably be one of her friends. Wouldn't the disappearance of one of Kelly's friends at the same time as the murder have been the subject, if not of suspicion, then at least of some comment? As Tecs has demonstrated it's not impossible that the woman in the bed was someone other than MJK but, as none of her friends is known to have disappeared at that time, it seems, to me anyway, highly improbable.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Let me suggest you save this pdf, it includes Niderkorn's Standards for the development of Rigor, it was the 'Standard' for the 19th century autopsy.
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi.../timedeath.pdf

Hi Jon,

I particularly noted this within the pdf:

A recurring problem in forensic medicine is the need to fix the time of death within the limits of probability. It is self-evident that the longer the interval of time between death and the examination of the body, the wider will be the limits of probability.

It would have been invaluable if the police had gained access to the room much earlier than they did.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Michael W Richards]

People were born, lived and died without ever being in the mainstream records folks, particularly those who came to the East End from almost anywhere, and some who were born and raised there. Looking for someone who disappeared assumes that someone knew she was there in the first place. All we know is that there were thousands of homeless women, and men, and between the transient lifestyle and the ability to create new personnas at will, unknown people slipped off into the shadows everyday.

Cheers

[RavenDarkendale]

We only know that MJK sometimes shared her room, the names of these women are pretty much unknown. Someone could have mention that so-and-so hadn't been around for a while, and that would have pretty much been it.

[Chava]

I went looking for Julia Venturney et al in Free BMD. Couldn't find her anywhere. Lots of Maria Harveys and a couple that might have fit the bill dying in Lambeth and Hackney. But there are too many women with that name to find this one without a lot more information than we have.

MJK is extremely elusive. But I don't think she's elusive enough to escape Millers Court alive. And the logistics bother me. If this was a random murder there was no reason to assume that she was the target and disappear from view like that. The Ripper had killed at least 3 other random women by that point. If she thought she was a target, did she lure someone else in there to be killed in her place? This was not an age of mass-access to public information. All MJK had to do was walk away from Millers Court and move to South London or some other location and change her name (again). She didn't have to sacrifice a fellow-whore to get away.

[lynn cates]

Van Turney

Hello Chava.

Did you, per chance, try Van Turney?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

This was not an age of mass-access to public information. All MJK had to do was walk away from Millers Court and move to South London or some other location and change her name (again). She didn't have to sacrifice a fellow-whore to get away.

Hi Chava,

Entirely agree, although it has been suggested that MJK might have done a disappearing act after coming home and finding carnage in her bed. Personally i think that, had she done that, she'd have told someone straight away. I don't think anyone could just quietly slip away after such a ghastly discovery.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Observer]

MJK is extremely elusive. But I don't think she's elusive enough to escape Millers Court alive. And the logistics bother me. If this was a random murder there was no reason to assume that she was the target and disappear from view like that. The Ripper had killed at least 3 other random women by that point. If she thought she was a target, did she lure someone else in there to be killed in her place? This was not an age of mass-access to public information. All MJK had to do was walk away from Millers Court and move to South London or some other location and change her name (again). She didn't have to sacrifice a fellow-whore to get away.

Hi Chava

I would have thought that if she was planning such a move, she would have stayed sober during it's execution

Regars

Observer

[Chava]

Did you, per chance, try Van Turney?

Yes, and no! Couldn't find anyone never mind Julia!

Observer I completely agree. If the woman Mary Ann Cox saw in Millers Court was MJK and I assume she was since Cox knew her well, she was as drunk as a lord. No way she executes a cunning plan like what's been suggested here.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

I think in this case its more probable that the woman found in room 13 was the woman we know as Mary Kelly, but that she wasnt born with that name.

I agree with the folks who have concluded that a substitution for Mary Kelly isnt really workable, ...it would have been something she would have had to orchestrate and then keep silent about for the rest of her life.

Best regards

[DRoy]

"We only know that MJK sometimes shared her room, the names of these women are pretty much unknown. Someone could have mention that so-and-so hadn't been around for a while, and that would have pretty much been it."

I posted this a couple weeks ago.

[Michael W Richards]

"We only know that MJK sometimes shared her room, the names of these women are pretty much unknown. Someone could have mention that so-and-so hadn't been around for a while, and that would have pretty much been it."

I posted this a couple weeks ago.

Is that excerpt from journalist Kit Watkin's of the Toronto Mail Millers Court interviews in '91 DRoy?

Cheers

[lynn cates]

research

Hello Chava. Thanks. Try here, post #4.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1193&highlight=venturney

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

Hi Michael,

No I actually found it in a New York paper. I'll have to try to track down the paper and the date. It was a large article so I didn't post the full thing but if I recall correctly I believe it was a NY Reporter, assistant, and a sketch artist.

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

Venteney

Hello Chava. Here is the record for Venteney (only one on Ancestry). Looks like the photographer, Antonio, is her father--not husband. That might explain why Chris had some trouble finding it.

Cheers.
LC