Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[richardnunweek]

Hi all,
Its really quite simple.
Mary Kelly was seen after medical opinion said she was dead.
Options..
She met her death at a later time, and the doctors were wrong.
The witness Maxwell had her schedule checked for the morning of the 9TH, and was verified,
Conclusion..
As the clothes she saw Kelly wearing, matched those belonging to the victim found in her room, the only other alternative, was she was lying deliberately, and added the clothing description from memory.
Which one do you adhere to?
Regards Richard.

[Phil H]

As for her being behind on the rent as far as six weeks, there had to be some good reason her landlord didn't evict her, as landlords in the East End expected to be paid preferably in advance.

Is there not some speculation that she was related to McCathy in some way? That might be a partial explanation.

Also that he was getting paid in "non-cash" ways.

Phil H

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I doubt if McCarthy was related in any way to Mary, the statement made to the Times Nov 10TH said'' she came to live with a man called Kelly, and as she often posed as his wife, became known as Mary Jane[ as residents knew her] Kelly.
That would imply that Kelly/Barnett was already resident in room 13, and she joined him.
That would also imply[ as I have always felt] that the room, at least back in Feb 88, was in his name.
That being the case she alone would only have been responsible for the rent since Barnett left her on the 30TH October, albeit the amount owed was 28shillings, and six pence.
It is conceivable that Barnett had told McCarthy upon leaving, that he would contribute money to Mary to keep a room over her head.
That may be the reason why he continued to call on her, even on the eve of her death, to say he had no money..
We also have to consider the caring side of McCarthy , especially Mrs M, who would not have wished a young girl like Mary to have been on the streets, all the time the killer was on the loose, even the day before, she had talked to Mary about it., receiving the reply''He is a concern isn't he, I hear he is rife in this area''.
Taking all of this into account, I would doubt if Mary Kelly was in immediate danger of eviction, and she knew it.
Dorset street rumour, about her character would seem about right, apparently she was always begging the men in the lodging houses to have pity on her, and many did, but she blew it all on drink.
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

Related or not, there might have been a connection - remember that Kelly was also connected to a Mrs 'Carthy' or 'Carty'. McCarthy and Carthy seem often to have been interchangeable.

Then again, perhaps there was no personal connection with McCarthy and hs simply felt it was a case of 'better the devil you know' - and allowed the rent arrears to accumulate in the hope/expectation that they'd be settled, eventually.

[Sally]

Do I smell another "invented witness" argument in the making..


Regards, Jon S.

Oh, not really Jon.

I simply think that we know little about Caroline Maxwell - she apparently vanishes from the record after 1888 and the 2nd November letter purporting to have originated at her address might just cast her in a different light. I think it may be a bit too much of a coincidence to be coincindence in the circumstances. Certainly very interesting.

If she did lie about seeing Kelly during the morning, to what end?

[Abby Normal]

Allrighty then!

Are we really to beleive that Mary Kelly, a person who was known to warn friends not to turn out like she did and who let friends in need stay in her place to the point where it caused her relationship to end would be the same type of person who would either be complicit in a murder scheme(which in its self is ridiculous) or callously ignore or try to turn finding a dead body on her bed to her advantage?!?

Really. The bullshit that sometimes piles up on these forums gets so high you need wings to stay above it.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sally,
I agree too much of a coincidence to be one..but what can we read into it? did someone residing at that address, have a laugh in sending a hoax letter to the Norfolk police, but why that police force, surely it originated from someone who knew Yarmouth well enough to pinpoint the two piers.??
But we have to be suspicious of Mrs Maxwell, simply because of her alleged sighting, that seems unshakeable , apart from a possible blatant lie..
If it was untrue, apart from attempting to protect someone, she may have been a glory seeker, hence the hoax letter, possibly getting the Yarmouth venue from another resident.
It is indeed a mystery.
Regards Richard.

[RavenDarkendale]

If she did lie about seeing Kelly during the morning, to what end?

Perhaps as has been suggested, for the attention, how ever brief.

But with Maurice Lewis, the detectives didn't even bring him up to testify at the inquest. He saw MJK at 10:00am. The Doctors all agreed that when her body was found at 10:45, she had been dead for some time, so she either wasn't seen at 10:00am, or that body was someone else.

Even today, that body would have to be ultimately identified by DNA, unless her finger prints were in the system for being busted on prostitution charges.

I don't think we can really know for sure, I just wanted to raise a different line of investigation. The simplest answer is it was her body and the witnesses were wrong. I'm not so quick to count that as the absolute truth, there is room for doubt.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Abby,
Naturally it is absurd to contemplate such acts, and I would say the vast majority of Casebook would agree.
However in the case of Mary Kelly, we have a very disfigured corpse, a witness swearing on oath that she was alive , after she was believed dead, and a friend of hers, stating that on the very eve of her death, that she would ''make away with herself''.
Fear is a strong emotion, and we should never underestimate any possibility , regardless of it belonging in a 'B movie'
Regards Richard.

[RavenDarkendale]

Allrighty then!

Are we really to beleive that Mary Kelly, a person who was known to warn friends not to turn out like she did and who let friends in need stay in her place to the point where it caused her relationship to end would be the same type of person who would either be complicit in a murder scheme(which in its self is ridiculous) or callously ignore or try to turn finding a dead body on her bed to her advantage?!?

Really. The bullshit that sometimes piles up on these forums gets so high you need wings to stay above it.

Hello Abby

Allow me to expound on the sentences I bolded in your quote.

1) Mary did often warn people not to turn out as she did. It then is reasonable to assume she would grasp at any chance to get away from that life.

2) Why not use the corpse to her advantage? There was nothing that could be done for the woman in the bed. She had been left in such a state as to not even look human. So Mary can vanish, to where, God only knows.

3) The fact that she allowed "unfortunates" to share her room means that the body could be someone else, without having to indicate that Mary was involved in the murder.

4) We are trying to place emphasis on what is "possible" so as to turn the conversation away from cut and dried arguments where neither side will give an inch and beat a dead horse. "Possibly" is not "Probably" and no where near "Certainty".

God Bless

Raven

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

A couple of different questions are being addressed here. And personally I think titles like " Was Mary Kelly the dead woman in the bed", or "Did Mary find the dead woman in her bed" may have been more to the points discussed.

Based on the condition of the corpse on the bed I would say its very possible to make a mistake when identifying that person. In the photos in Room 13 its clear that Marys eyes were obscured by flesh hanging in flaps from her forehead, (one of only 2 things the closest man to her, Barnett, could recognize),.. and its impossible to see whether she was a "stout" girl as has been reported. Ive always found it odd that Barnett couldnt recognize her hands, or legs, or feet...but that may be indicative of the state she was in when he did identify her...probably while in a box in the morgue, with only her face visible. Like the jurors saw her.

I believe its possible that the woman in the bed wasnt Mary Kelly, but I also recognize that for that to be true, its hard to imagine that Mary wouldnt have been in on the substitution herself. Which seems highly unlikely to me.

And if she was in on it, then she made a huge mistake talking to Carrie Maxwell that morning.

I think the evidence, as it is, suggests that it probably was Mary in the bed.

Cheers

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all

If the body in 13 Miller's Court was not Mary Jane Kelly, it's unlikely that she would have been seen on the street while such a corpse was lying on her bed. In other words, if there is any truth to the idea that she had wanted to disappear, it's absurd to use such sightings as proof that she survived. More likely the sightings are either mistaken or else she was killed later than has been assumed.

Best regards

Chris

[RivkahChaya]

But we have to be suspicious of Mrs Maxwell, simply because of her alleged sighting, that seems unshakeable , apart from a possible blatant lie..

People have sworn unshakable identifications on the witness stand under oath, that a particular man raped them, and he was put in prison for years, until DNA exculpated him.

Witnesses can be unshakable, but still wrong.

[curious]

Hi all

it's absurd to use such sightings as proof that she survived. More likely the sightings are either mistaken or else she was killed later than has been assumed.

Best regards

Chris

To me the sightings are evidence/suggestion that the murder occurred later than the supposed TOD.

It is difficult to imagine that she could be out and about so normally IF she were involved in hatching a scheme that involved murder, mutilation and running.

On the other hand, if she had loaned her bed to someone else and had not yet discovered the horror . . . would that be possible?

What are the odds the inadvertent body would be the right height and hair color to be mistaken for her?

And what is the explanation for the clothes?

any ideas?

[Sally]

I find the premise that she was killed later in the morning difficult. People were up and about, going about their daily business - it would have presented a huge risk to her killer.

And nobody heard or saw anything? No, I think it one of the less plausible scenarios. The morning sighthings are problematic - not least because more than one person claimed to have seen Kelly.

There are only two explanations really, either: those sightings were mistaken or deliberately misleading (and if the latter, we must ask why?); the woman in No. 13 was not Kelly.

For the sake of argument, let's say it wasn't. We know she was allowing other women to stay in her room. Perhaps on that occasion she didn't return during the night, for whatever reason (there could be a few) and when she did, she discovered a mutilated corpse in her room.

I can actually see her legging it in those circumstances. I think I might.

I'm not saying that I think this is what happened, merely speculating.