Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Wickerman]

... She then flees London to God-knows-where, perhaps back to Ireland.

She didn't have enough money to pay the rent, how on earth can she afford to flee anywhere?

If she had somewhere to run to, someone who could put her up, then why was she living in the East end to start with - by choice?

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

Yes, I agree. With regard to Caroline Maxwell, has she been traced in the record? I have an idea that she hasn't, fully.

Hmmm....

I like the sound of that "Hmmm . . ."

[curious]

She didn't have enough money to pay the rent, how on earth can she afford to flee anywhere?

If she had somewhere to run to, someone who could put her up, then why was she living in the East end to start with - by choice?

Regards, Jon S.

Hi, Jon,
I wonder if the rent arrears and her connection with McCarthy were really what is on the record -- as far better than I have suggested.

And why was she in the East End is a question I have never had a satisfactory answer for . . .

However, a running scenario is very complicated and horribly cruel and brutal.

I can see pointers toward that possiblity. I can understand the extreme mutilation.

But somehow, my mind doesn't want to go there . . .

curious

P.S. I owe you a reply on another thread. Found it a while ago, but have lost it for the moment.

[moonbegger]

She didn't have enough money to pay the rent, how on earth can she afford to flee anywhere?

She was top of the food chain in regards to being a brass ( prostitute ) Not only would she have made better money , but a lot more of it .. She wasn't in the habit of drinking on a regular basis from what i read ( at least not a 24 hour piss head) She could have also saved up all her rent money with the sole intention of doing a bunk ..

I think the problem is , we only see the chains and restrictions we put on ourselves , when it comes to accounting for the actions and visions of other people .. Talent , Whit and charm , can take you around the world more than once if you allow it to !

moonbegger

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If one takes the view [I do] that the letter sent with the address of 14, Dorset street, is important..what do we have?
Someone took an educated/lucky guess, and addressed the letter as from that address, which happens to be directly opposite the entrance, of the location of the next victim of the Ripper. posted approx 1 week prior.
Someone was a hoaxer from that address, or was attempting to give a clue to the residence of the killer, we know that a young lady born in Norfolk was there in the 1891 census, and likely in 1888.[ where the letter was received]
I find it hard to dismiss, that Caroline Maxwell, actually resided at number 14, and she was the witness that laid doubt to when the murder of MJK happened.
One could take a realistic view, that she may have had some kind of knowledge of this murder, and for some reason attempted to defraud the T.O.D.
That being the case her husband would be a logical choice, he would have been handily positioned to have seen many comings and goings in the street , and the court, and would have been within yards of the murder site, making a exit relatively easy.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

She was top of the food chain in regards to being a brass ( prostitute ) Not only would she have made better money , but a lot more of it .. She wasn't in the habit of drinking on a regular basis from what i read ( at least not a 24 hour piss head) She could have also saved up all her rent money with the sole intention of doing a bunk ..

She wasn't in the habit of walking the streets either while she was with Barnett, and he had only left recently. So she had no great time to amass any wealth.
You think she had a secret stash of coin under the floorboards?
Considering how these women lived, essentially from hand to mouth, that is not a serious proposal.
Neither does she appear to have amassed any great wealth while with Mrs Phoenix, to end up in Dorset St. of all places.

And, we do not know how much she charged, we don't even know how much any of the victims charged. If she wanted to earn more because "she could", she should have been down the West end where the money and conditions were better. It's where she was "supposed" to have come from if you remember.

MJK does appear to stand out as an odd example of an East end prostitute, too fine a specimen, if you like, but then we are short of a range of examples with which to make an accurate assessment.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Yes, I agree. With regard to Caroline Maxwell, has she been traced in the record? I have an idea that she hasn't, fully.

Hmmm....

Do I smell another "invented witness" argument in the making..


Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

She didn't have enough money to pay the rent, how on earth can she afford to flee anywhere?

Hi Jon

Don't know about the crossing to Ireland (suppose she could've stopped off a while and earned that) but from various internet sources, I think the 1888 3rd class rail fare London-Liverpool was 16s 6d...it's a substantial amount - four week rent - but in proportion it's just over half what she allegedly owed McCarthy...

All the best

Dave

[RivkahChaya]

She didn't have enough money to pay the rent, how on earth can she afford to flee anywhere?

Thank you. The only possible idea I can come up with-- and I'm not saying it's a good one, it's just what I'd say if I were put on the spot, and needed an answer-- is that she were meeting up with someone. But then, that suggests planning, which means either an incredible bit of serendipity to find a handy corpse in her room, or that she and whoever she escaped with killed and mutilated a woman just to convince people that MJK had died. Unless you want to get way into the realm of novels, and suggest they somehow procured an already-dead body.

Hi, Richard,
Let's start with medical opinion, which I find very curious and even unreasonable. On one hand, we have people who believe that Annie Chapman, who was going into rigor in her arms, was killed just an hour earlier, and on the other, people who buy that MJK, who was going into rigor during examination, hae been killed a full 12 hours earlier . . . .

Hello Curious ,
Especially when you add to the equation, the fact that Cold slows down the onset of Rigor , where as heat hastens it .. very surprising , given the heat generated in that little room by the fire place !

moonbegger

I was going to mention that, moonbegger, but you beat me to it. Anyway, it seems to be a really common mistake that cold would advance rigor, rather than the other way around. People must confuse it with freezing. I have actually had people argue the point with me, insisting that a cold body would enter rigor faster, and I had to look it up to show them.

Of course, maybe MJK's body didn't show typical rigor, because so much muscle tissue was removed. What are the details exactly? I don't have a book in front of me.

[curious]

Thank you. The only possible idea I can come up with-- and I'm not saying it's a good one, it's just what I'd say if I were put on the spot, and needed an answer-- is that she were meeting up with someone. But then, that suggests planning, which means either an incredible bit of serendipity to find a handy corpse in her room, or that she and whoever she escaped with killed and mutilated a woman just to convince people that MJK had died. Unless you want to get way into the realm of novels, and suggest they somehow procured an already-dead body.


Of course, maybe MJK's body didn't show typical rigor, because so much muscle tissue was removed. What are the details exactly? I don't have a book in front of me.

Let's say they needed a dead woman, whether they procured an already-dead body or made their own . . .

Would the body not need to be approximately the same height? Have approximately the same color hair?

Those two are basics. The dreadful mutilation could be explained by the extra body being a different shape, with arms and legs that were a different shape, maybe with a different complexion . . .

It just seems almost too complicated to be able to make it work, doesn't it?

However, it could explain why the coat and hat were burned because they were blood stained. MJK wore them to protect her good clothing.

What could she or anyone have been running from that she needed people to think she was dead? Why not just disappear?

But what kind of person could actually do that? Can we imagine the woman we know as MJK being capable of that?

As I said earlier, too complicated and too horrible to think about.

Plus, why was the other woman never missed?

And about the rigor and the heat of the room -- would it not be more common for rigor to be beginning at 2 p.m. if the murder had occurred about 10 a.m.?

too many questions -- no answers

[Wickerman]

Of course, maybe MJK's body didn't show typical rigor, because so much muscle tissue was removed. What are the details exactly? I don't have a book in front of me.

Rigor is the result of the buildup of lactic acid, among other chemical changes, similar to the process that results in cramp in a living person.
You may have a point there in that a body so exposed might drain the lactic acid so its impact on tissue is lessened. I don't know how you would get a professional opinion on that though.

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

It just seems almost too complicated to be able to make it work, doesn't it?

That was meant to be an argument from absurdity. My point was that finding a body in her room just when she wanted to, AND was prepared to abscond is a bit unlikely, but the idea that she procured her own body is just too awful.

I also kind of get the sense, even though we don't know much about her, that she might have enjoyed being a star witness at the inquest, if she really did come home to find a body in her room.

Really, the only argument for the body not being hers is that the facial mutilations makes an objective identification by an objective person, from a photograph, or by a casual acquaintance, not possible. But I think someone who knew her as well as Barnett did could identify her from her hair and the shape of her head. Can't most of us identify people like our spouses from the back?

Rigor is the result of the buildup of lactic acid, among other chemical changes, similar to the process that results in cramp in a living person.
You may have a point there in that a body so exposed might drain the lactic acid so its impact on tissue is lessened. I don't know how you would get a professional opinion on that though.

Regards, Jon S.

That wasn't exactly what I meant-- I meant that rigor is a process that occurs in muscle, and with enough muscle tissue gone, the joints might be flexible. I couldn't find anything on point exactly, but I did find some rather disturbing information, that sometimes rigor in a baby isn't obvious because of their lack of muscle tissue, and that rigor is an issue in the meat industry, so they shock meat after it's slaughtered, because it basically causes a seizure that dissipates all the stored glycogen, and one of the neurotransmitters, so the muscles can no longer contract.

So, I was thinking that she might not have rigor in her legs and hips, or have some kind of atypical rigor; you have to have both of opposing muscles of a set to have the inflexibility of rigor, I assume-- if one half of the set is missing, and rigor is in the other set, I'm not sure what happens.

In fact, now I have to go find someone who would really know about this stuff, to ask whether having half of the muscles missing in your upper legs when rigors sets in would pull your legs up the way MJK's are. Maybe her killer didn't position them that way. No, I don't really think that, I think she was left that way, because it was the most convenient pose for the defleshing. But I am really curious now how missing muscles would affect rigor.

Also, I don't know whether doctors in 1888 under stood the chemical process of rigor. They may have-- I just don't know. I have no idea whether they would have taken missing muscles into account, or whether they knew the difference temperature made.

Wow. Too bad this can't be a Body Farm case.

OK, now I'm creeped out, and it's time for bed. Last post for the night.

[Hunter]

Also, I don't know whether doctors in 1888 under stood the chemical process of rigor. They may have-- I just don't know. I have no idea whether they would have taken missing muscles into account, or whether they knew the difference temperature made.
can't be a Body Farm case.

They didn't understand all of the chemical processes involved outside of the effect of the exteme loss of blood. They did understand the effect of temperature.

[RavenDarkendale]

She didn't have enough money to pay the rent, how on earth can she afford to flee anywhere?

If she had somewhere to run to, someone who could put her up, then why was she living in the East end to start with - by choice?

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon

Well, several men were giving her money when they could and she was certainly one of the more comely streetwalkers, and probably didn't lack for customers.

Perhaps she had some money saved. Perhaps she simply vanished into the abyss that was the East End of London. As for her being behind on the rent as far as six weeks, there had to be some good reason her landlord didn't evict her, as landlords in the East End expected to be paid preferably in advance.

I don't say she did go away, I'm asking if it were possible for the body, destroyed beyond recognition, NOT to be Mary Kelly.

God Bless

Raven

[RavenDarkendale]

Plus, why was the other woman never missed?

Unfortunately people vanish without a trace every day, and the world certainly doesn't lack for unidentified bodies. Recall they never discovered who the Pinchin Street Torso was either. Why wasn't she missed?