Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[miakaal4]

I have always found this aspect of the ripper folklore a problem. It seems unbelievable that people could see and even apparently speak to MJK after her death, and be mistaken about which day it was. Maybe one could make that mistake, but surely not 2,3,or who knows how many? Against this of course is your correct argument as to why Marie would hang about, if someone was killed in your lodgings, would you not rush home to see who, to tell the police who was using your room and let friends know you are ok? Unless you knew who was after you and got scared? Against this are Hutchingsons statements, and of course Barnett. Hohum!

[richardnunweek]

Hi Miakaal,
We should not forget the possibility, that Kelly was alive when Maxwell saw her, and she was killed around 9am,
That would explain her sighting, and would not involve any conspiracy .
I have always felt that the last person who was seen with a victim , at the very least, has to be eliminated from inquiries, and this would be the man seen talking to Kelly around 8.45, and in my opinion was her killer.
Having said that..I would never rule out anything in this case.
We have a lot to learn .
Regards Richard.

[RavenDarkendale]

Dr. George Bagster Phillips' opinion of time of death, around 12 hours earlier than when the body was examined, perhaps as early as 2:00 am and no later than 8:00 am, would seem to place the murder out of any scenario where MJK could be seen alive by those who knew her well at 8:30, (Caroline Maxwell), and certainly at 10:00 am (Maurice Lewis). Recall the body was discovered at 10:45.

On a related note, does it strike anyone else as suspicious that John McCarthy chose the very day of Kelly's death to collect rent money six weeks overdue when Whitechapel Doss Houses would throw people into the streets if they could not produce four pence a night for the bed? Did McCarthy know more about the murder than he told? Did he send Thomas Bowyer to make certain the body was discovered? Food for thought.

But if the witnesses are to be believed, Mary Jane Kelly was not that body...

[DVV]

While Barnett is a possible suspect in my book (I know others disagree strongly) others with whom she is known to have had relationships include Fleming and the oddly named Morganstone.

If I recall correctly, Fleming was identified as a very tall man (though that might be a scribal error) who was later certified as having mental problems. there is a thread or threads on Casebook about him.

I believe all of them are worth more work. Fleming continued to see Mary and either verbally or physically abused her, according to our sources.

Phil H

Hi Phil
on the contrary, neither Venturney nor Barnett described Fleming as "very tall", although 6'7 would have been an extraordinary height at the time.

[lynn cates]

welcome

Hello Dave. Good to see you back. Will you hang about for a while?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

The items of clothing Kelly was wearing, were found in room 13.

Hello, Richard,
was there some mention from Mrs. Maxwell that she had not seen Kelly wear those particular items for a long time? or something like that?

My memory is vague,but I believe I've read that somewhere.

Thanks,

curious

[Phil H]

Hi Phil
on the contrary, neither Venturney nor Barnett described Fleming as "very tall", although 6'7 would have been an extraordinary height at the time.

My apologies, I was unclear - I should have said subsequently identified. I was referring to the Casebook threads where a recent identification of Fleming was made which gave him esxceptional height from (was it) a day book/admission record? If I recall correctly, he also (like Lechmere /Cross) went by another name. The thread I had in mind is here for ease of reference:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2079&highlight=Fleming

Personally, I discount the exceptional height - I think it was a slip for 5'7" - but as it's part of the written record and we have no other evidence, we cannot dicount it.

You are absolutely correct that Barnett and Venturney made no mention of height.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify.

Phil H

[richardnunweek]

Hi Curious,
Indeed Maxwell did remark, that she had not seen Kelly wearing that clothing for some time.
But as the garment described were in Mary's room, it would point to the fact that Mrs M saw the woman she knew as Mary Jane , and was not mistaken on identification..
Maxwell's sighting is not that unbelievable , if one takes the view that the murder took place in daylight.No conspiracy..
The initial police belief, was precisely that, even if it was flying in the face of medical opinion. they even had Maxwell give her evidence in spite of their own police doctors view.
If they hoped to have Mrs Maxwell retract her claim at he inquest , they were wrong.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Good morning Phil,
Fleming's height as recorded is a concern, but it is down as 6'7'' , so we can only presume, one way or another.
His concern about be questioned, and him having delusions that he was being watched and followed, may be the result of him being paranoid about his height, which would not be surprising .
I have major doubts that he was Kelly's Joe, despite several pointers , mothers name etc, and if he was, then he was almost certain to have been 5'7'', and normal to the eye.
I would say however, if James Evans inmate was the 'Joe', that she was fond of that ill-used her, and he was Fleming , we would have a extremely good candidate for him being Jack the Ripper.
We would have a connection with the last victim, who was certified insane..but we all know what coincidences mean...
Regards Richard.

[Phil H]

I too find Fleming a fascinating enigma.

Is this the right man?

Did he abuse her - verbally or physically? If the latter, even more food for thought.

He was put away for mental instability - which fits a lot of police supposition that "Jack" was in an asylum. Was "Kosminski" a misunderstanding?

Fleming appears to have gone by an alias - as with lechmere/Cross, it would be interesting to know why?

Just a shame we don't have enough pieces of the Fleming jigsaw to know whether to dismiss him or dig deeper. But I do find him a neglected but compelling candidate for the MJK murder (though probably not for "Jack").

Phil H

[Fisherman]

Phil H:

"Fleming appears to have gone by an alias - as with lechmere/Cross, it would be interesting to know why?"

He did, Phil - James Evans was what he called himself. But I think we have a major difference involved when comparing to Lechmere: Fleming suffered from delusions of persecution, and if he did not want his imaginary persecutors to catch up with him, a change of name and identity could perhaps help!

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

Good Morning Fisherman

I assume that you know what Charles Crossmere's mental state was when he implemented the dastardly 'nameswop' - and indeed for the remainder of his life?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Phil.
Must not turn into a Fleming thread, however on reflection you are right , he would be a candidate for MJK, but unlikely to have been ''Jack''.
If he was on his way to insanity, then the gross mutilation may well have been part of his make-up. without even attempting to copycat .
We could therefore even have a scenario, where the real Jack the Ripper ceased his activities after 30TH sept, which would explain the time gap.
But again a coincidence, as lets be honest the whole series does look to have been the work of one person.. or maybe not?
Regards Richard.

[Phil H]

He did, Phil - James Evans was what he called himself. But I think we have a major difference involved when comparing to Lechmere: Fleming suffered from delusions of persecution, and if he did not want his imaginary persecutors to catch up with him, a change of name and identity could perhaps help!

A very interesting explanation - but slightly too glib for my taste. Do we have sufficient evidence to warrant the certainty you suggest? Your interpretation is perhaps one alternative...

It does raise the question of course - with implications for the Lechmere/Cross issue - did many men (and women - MJK, for instance) go under more than one name in the East End of 1888? We know Kate Eddowes did. Stride may have impersonated Mrs Watts' sister....

Just a thought.

Phil H

[Sally]

Any minute now, somebody's going to tell me that Fleming was 7'6" (or is it the other way round) and cannot therefore have been involved in the case at all. And certainly didn't live at the Victoria Home.

Or something.

As for name changes - I think it was very common. Many people called themselves by middle names for example. You come across it all the time in the historic record.