Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Tecs]

Hi Tecs,
Abberline's report was intended for his superior, not the press.

Hi DVV.

Yes, I agree and it could be that whatever the press said, the report should be the truth just as in the Jewish/Foreign example.

But I can imagine Abb helping Hutch out by just putting "friend" whilst personally knowing the truth. It didn't make any difference overall. If he had taken the statement as dictated by Hutch and then found out the truth afterwards, then why bother rewriting the statement?

Perfectly possible and Abb would know that the story would find its way into the papers one way or the other so to keep this new witness onside, he may have helped him out.

regards,

[Tecs]

Would you give your name to a prostitute ?
Maybe "Jon"... but your name ???

Going back to Peter Sutcliffe again, one survivor said that he had called himself "Dave."

Hardly the most original alias, but an alias nonetheless.

regards,

[DVV]

As for me, Tecs, my name is Dave, but they all know me as George.

[Sally]

We cannot make a mountain out of a molehill with this "friend" business, we don't know what he meant by it.
Mary had women staying with her on occasion (Harvey, etc.), these might be "friends", clearly Hutchinson does not fall into that category. So, does he mean "occasional acquaintance"?, "infrequent customer"?, "friend of a friend"?

Who's making a mountain out of a molehill Jon? No, we don't know the exact nature of Hutchinson's relationship with Kelly - is anybody claiming that they do?

If we believe his account though, we can determine that they were on familiar terms, had known each other for some years, and were on close enough terms for him to give her money from time to time. According to him, remember, she asked him to lend her some money - not give in in return for services rendered. Only a relatively good friend would have lent her money - it implies a level of trust that doesn't occur with casual acquaintances or occasional customers.

I think we have another example here of a few who are trying to make something out of nothing.

To what end, exactly Jon?

[Sally]

Hi FM

I've never been convinced by the "Hutchinson, will you lend me six pence" line. In an era, and area, where money was tight, I can't imagine it was common place for those down on their luck to dole out money to someone unlikely to repay it any time soon. Seems to me that much of Hutchinson's statement is aimed at making the point that they knew one another, which to me suggests he didn't have a clue who she was.

Good point - I've wondered the same - did he know her? Was he even there? Or just chancing his luck?

I'm curious as to where Mary bought her food. Presumably she ate not long before she retired to her hovel, and presumably she was drinking in a local pub; so presumably she bought it from a local chandlers. Strange that no witness statement survives with details of serving Mary.

There was a fish and chip shop on the corner of Wentworth St a couple of years later - don't know if it was there in 1888, but maybe fish and chips was her last meal.

And yes, somebody must have served her - but perhaps in a very busy environment, like a pub, nobody remembered her. Then again, if she was a regular there you'd have thought it more likely that they would.

[Wickerman]

Who's making a mountain out of a molehill Jon?

Oh I think both Michael and Dave are trying to over emphasize his claim to have been Kelly's friend.

If we believe his account though, we can determine that they were on familiar terms, had known each other for some years, and were on close enough terms for him to give her money from time to time.

That's right, and we shouldn't assume the only male friends a prostitute can have is as a client.

According to him, remember, she asked him to lend her some money - not give in in return for services rendered. Only a relatively good friend would have lent her money - it implies a level of trust that doesn't occur with casual acquaintances or occasional customers.

It is always possible that was a euphemistic comment. I don't expect a voluntary witness to admit to being propositioned by a murder victim.

To what end, exactly Jon?

The usual end Sally, be it known that there are some within our midst who are bent on denouncing our mysterious groom as being less than honest

To what degree is the question..

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

If the latter, then what about Fleming ? He would be innocent in that case, so why didn't he come forward ?

I lived in New York during the particularly crime-laden 1980s. The police often had a difficult time getting witnesses to crimes to come forward, because people "didn't want to get involved." That meant a lot of things. Sometimes it meant people were afraid of retaliation, but that wasn't the main reason. The justice system moved very slowly, and getting involved as a witness could have you tied up giving affidavits, and grand jury testimony, before a final trial, for several years. If you moved and didn't update you address with the DA, you'd be threatened with things like obstruction charges, whether that was an empty threat or not.

Then there was the fact that it was an economically difficult time (no matter what was happening on TV) for the bottom 75% of the nation (the top prospered under Reagan, but "trickle down" was a fairy tale), and people felt isolated and abandoned. No one felt like helping one another, or, in their perception, "the government," (DAs and police).

So, if we are working from the assumption that anyone who might be a witness in the Ripper cases eagerly came forward, we might need to re-examine that assumption. Even people who were friends of the victims (or so-claimed, for whatever reasons), may not have eagerly come forward.

Some [customers Mary Kelly]'ll remember, others she'll forget.

I'm sure that works in both directions. Some customers may stand out in a sex workers mind for reasons other than frequency; and, depending on what kind of work schedule she keeps, in order even for a frequent customer to stand out, he may have to be very frequent over a long term.

Then for the johns: if a man is someone who uses prostitutes only a few times in his life, he may remember every encounter; some men may use them on almost a daily basis, but as much as they can, stick to a couple of regulars. Even if they don't know the women's real names, they probably have some name to call them. Even though business is business, and Pretty Women is a lot of BS, sex workers who have regulars certainly have some they like better than others. That's true of anyone who works with the public. Waitresses have favorite regulars, who probably tip them well. I have three different mail carriers on my route, and one is a lot better than the other two, so I always hope that when a package is delivered, it comes on a day she is working. I certainly plan to tip her on the holidays.

Some men may be all business with sex workers, others may have a girlfriend fantasy; the latter may tend to tell them their real names. The former may give a fake name at the outset to give him a false sense of security that she won't find out his real name (she probably won't care). Men who feel guilty about what they are doing may not want to know the woman's name, and may not want to be called anything, not even a false name, but I have a feeling that's unusual. There's a convenience in being called something, even if it's "Thursday at 6."

[Wickerman]

There was a fish and chip shop on the corner of Wentworth St a couple of years later - don't know if it was there in 1888, but maybe fish and chips was her last meal.

Posters thought I was joking when I raised that possibility some months ago.
One suspect in Berner St. carried a newspaper parcel, and Stride had "potato" in her stomach too. A very cheap and common food though..

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,
Good post.
The expression "using the guise of..." certainly fits Hutch : he's a fake.
And you're right : no friend would "stand silently by 4 days"...
...but the man who called himself Hutchinson at Commercial Street Police Station was really MJK's intimate.

Hi David,

Thanks for the support. I have to say that your last line and some subsequent posts make some real sense to me. Recently a TV presentation of some research on Deeming and his probability as a real Ripper suspect mentioned that Deeming used a few dozen aliases during his last decade or 2, with the great digging that has been done in the past 20 years weve been able to find documentation verifying at least a continuance of identities for many individuals, based on the census records. Odd that in this instance the most controversial witness and the victim herself have eluded the same scrutiny.

Hutchinson could have been one of many aliases, and the Joe we hear about Mary seeing while still with Mr Barnett could well have been him. However Im no so sure, although I can understand the logic behind it, that our Mr Flemming was that same Joe/George. Imagine if you will that Mary was seeing someone involved in clandestine operations for some "Fenian" faction and the real reason she is killed is not because of some romantic triangle alone, but to protect individuals and the revolution from exposure.

That would explain the personal nature of the scene and the murder, the lack of ability to identify in records some key persons involved, and things like Abberline and his handpicked team re-sieving ashes Saturday morning after the grate was examined at length on Friday afternoon, and the arrival on the scene of some high ranking Irish police and Members of Parliament being interested in visiting the scene at the height of the crowds.

The need for aliases here may well tie in with what Ive been suggesting about Irish self rule links to this murder.

Do you recall my thread long ago about Re-Invention?

Cheers

[RivkahChaya]

Posters thought I was joking when I raised that possibility some months ago.
One suspect in Berner St. carried a newspaper parcel, and Stride had "potato" in her stomach too. A very cheap and common food though..

Regards, Jon S.

Would it be unreasonable that someone who worked at a place like that would swap a meal for a trick? A meal might be worth a little more than a quickie in an alley, but someone who could siphon a little food of the top without the boss noticing, would be essentially getting something for nothing.

I'm not trying to jump to conclusions; I'm just asking if that's even plausible.

[Wickerman]

So, if we are working from the assumption that anyone who might be a witness in the Ripper cases eagerly came forward, we might need to re-examine that assumption. Even people who were friends of the victims (or so-claimed, for whatever reasons), may not have eagerly come forward.

Precisely.
Especially male friends, next to the victim's "significant other", any male friends will immediately come under scrutiny.

Waitresses have favorite regulars, who probably tip them well.

Exactly!

Regards, Jon S.

[Sally]

Posters thought I was joking when I raised that possibility some months ago.
One suspect in Berner St. carried a newspaper parcel, and Stride had "potato" in her stomach too. A very cheap and common food though..

Regards, Jon S.

I don't see why Jon - Fish and Chips was a well established meal for the working classes by 1888; it would be unrealistic to suggest that it wasn't available on the streets of London. In fact, there almost certainly were numerous 'fast food' outlets on the streets - it would have been a great business opportunity for so many reasons.

And fish and potatoes - what's it going to be, bought most likely on the way home from the pub? Eels and mash maybe; but Fish and Chips is quite plausible.

[DVV]

That's right, and we shouldn't assume the only male friends a prostitute can have is as a client.
Regards, Jon S.

Some posts earlier he was a customer among many, now he's a friend.
You sure must be right, Jon.

[Michael W Richards]

I don't see why Jon - Fish and Chips was a well established meal for the working classes by 1888; it would be unrealistic to suggest that it wasn't available on the streets of London. In fact, there almost certainly were numerous 'fast food' outlets on the streets - it would have been a great business opportunity for so many reasons.

And fish and potatoes - what's it going to be, bought most likely on the way home from the pub? Eels and mash maybe; but Fish and Chips is quite plausible.

Makes sense Sally, and I would imagine that many of them would position themselves near to the pubs. Particularly at around closing time. Just like they do today. Only here in Toronto modern day its more likely to be shish kebab or hot sausages.

It possible that there could have been chowder in Blotchy Faces tankard.

Cheers

[DVV]

A Rolling Stones tribute to George Hutchinson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSlQ7myjkDI