Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Wickerman]

The most available fuel for fires for the "great unwashed" was dried horse dung. They would scrap it up off the streets and use it to burn instead of wood or coal. With that in mind I wouldn't be too concerned about bad odors in Kellys room.

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

Hi Jon
that is still the "fuel" used in some parts of Africa. It's common in Ethiopia, for instance. The odor isn't particularly bad, and people even cook their food.
It consumes slowly, you can't make a "great fire" with that, the flames are very tiny, sometimes almost invisible..

[RavenDarkendale]

@DVV

Very true. The Plains Indians of Western USA used buffalo "chips" for that very reason, nearly smokeless fires. The white man soon learned this trick, since smoke could bring hostiles from a long ways off.

Back to the smell, in dressing deer, squirrels, rabbits, and groundhogs (woodchucks to some), there is usually a violent smell from the viscera that could stun a hungry buzzard. With her whole body cavity emptied and piled in a mess on that little table, it would be one more reason to hurl!

RD

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

To respond to a point within your last rebuttal post to me Jon, regarding Hutchinson, for me personally George Hutchinson was witness with an agenda. He came in to plant and "finger" a suspect using the guise provided to him by Sarah Lewis's Wideawake Hat Man story element. His story beginning is suspect...a Mary Kelly coming to him for some money....why, at that time of the night and why wasnt she hammered at the time....and it then offers us the best reason to reject his claims.....he says they were friends.

Tell me...what 'friend" would stand silently by for 4 days after the horrible murder of a friend before coming forward, conspicuously, after any people who actually knew Mary Kelly had already appeared in the Inquest that ended that same day? What genuine witness is "discarded" after 3 days?

If George was a planted storyline, then what about Carrie Maxwell?...you might ask My answer is that Carrie wanted to be part of the carnival and she used her very casual knowledge of the victim as her way in.

Cheers Jon

[Wickerman]

Hi all,

To respond to a point within your last rebuttal post to me Jon, regarding Hutchinson, for me personally George Hutchinson was witness with an agenda. He came in to plant and "finger" a suspect using the guise provided to him by Sarah Lewis's Wideawake Hat Man story element.

Hi Michael.

There could be a handful of different reason's why Hutchinson told the story he did. Was he the killer, was he an accomplice of the killer, or was he truly there as a witness but spiced up his story a little? (I'll leave aside the option that he told the verbatim truth, that is possibly the least likely answer).

I can't think of a solution that I'm satisfied with, yet I will vociferously defend any accusation that it was proven he lied, that argument is simply untrue.
"We" can think that he lied, but the police did not, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the police even eventually came to disbelieve his story.

To your point above, we do not see any press interviews with Sarah Lewis, it seems she kept out of the limelight until the Inquest. So, Hutchinson had no opportunity to absorb her story, but he might have read about Mrs Kennedy's sighting, that was in the press, I can't deny that.

Its a little too much to believe there were two different "well-dressed" men at the Commercial St. end of Dorset St., at the same time, both talking with Kelly. While it is not impossible, it is too much of a stretch.

So, regardless of a few differences in description the path of least resistance is to accept them as the same person. Why Hutchinson elaborated his appearance to make him appear Jewish is anyone's guess.
This man's description has become, to my mind, another red herring. It doesn't matter what he looked like (Lewis & Kennedy's description will suffice), the man existed or at least there are no grounds to believe otherwise.

His story beginning is suspect...a Mary Kelly coming to him for some money....why, at that time of the night and why wasnt she hammered at the time...

I think you'll find that a man's opinion of what it is to be "drunk" differs slightly from a woman's opinion. To Cox she was drunk, to Hutchinson she was just tipsy. These are subjective opinions and we cannot make too much of them. Kelly had been drinking, we can safely leave it at that.

and it then offers us the best reason to reject his claims.....he says they were friends.

Tell me...what 'friend" would stand silently by for 4 days after the horrible murder of a friend before coming forward,

These were different times, if a "friend" gets murdered the police are going to be looking for all her acquaintances, which will include "you"!, so it might be a good idea to lay low or a few days.
On the other hand, no-one knew for sure when MJK died, some papers were suggesting after 9:00 am Friday morning, therefore, why would anyone think that an acquaintance she was seen with at 2:00 am would have had anything to do with it?

What genuine witness is "discarded" after 3 days?

Well, Dr. Bond's report prettywell terminated any suspicions harbored by the police that Kelly was alive after 2:00 am. The police did not need to call S. Lewis, Kennedy, Maxwell & Hutchinson all liars, they now had a professional opinion to follow, citizen can make mistakes. You'll find that the police are not required to justify a change in direction, they do not wish to badmouth anyone, they will say nothing about eye-witness statements to the contrary.

My answer is that Carrie wanted to be part of the carnival and she used her very casual knowledge of the victim as her way in.

And you may be correct, but Maxwell does not stand in isolation, there is also M. Lewis & sightings at The Horn a Plenty. Its what we might call today a "class action suit"
Its a problem.

Regards, Jon
(Have a great Long weekend!)

[RivkahChaya]

Well blood has a heavy clinging odor, said to be coppery, whatever that is. Even fresh blood has a strong smell, as any deer hunter could tell you.

Coppery? Blood mostly has iron in it, which as a metal, does smell. However, it's hard to say what fresh blood, by itself, smells like. Have you ever smelled a jar of nothing but blood? I haven't. I've smelled decomposing animal carcasses, and they're pretty strong, and I've smelled fresh animal carcasses, and had the misfortune to once be present at an accident where a human victim bled a lot, but I don't remember any particular smell. I once got cut myself, and had a lot of my own blood on my hands, that dried before I washed it off, and it had a metallic smell, but not really strong.

I was in Manhattan on 9/11, although never very close to the financial district-- I mostly saw clouds in the sky, and the gap in the skyline. Other people claimed they could smell blood, sweat, and burning flesh, but I just smelled a sort of acrid smoke, that just smelled like any industrial smoke, only much more so. I don't know whether other people were imposing their emotions on what they thought they experienced, or whether I'm less sensitive to biological smells. I doubt it's the latter, because I'm a vegetarian, and I find the smell of meat cooking very disturbing.

But you have a point about the baby formula. Wife and I had three kids relatively close together and I smelled like simulac for several years!

I breastfed my son, but he needed supplements for about 4 weeks-- 4 to 6 ounces of formula a day. It really smells compared to human breastmilk.

Back to the smell, in dressing deer, squirrels, rabbits, and groundhogs (woodchucks to some), there is usually a violent smell from the viscera that could stun a hungry buzzard. With her whole body cavity emptied and piled in a mess on that little table, it would be one more reason to hurl!

But that's the smell of the whole viscera, not just the blood. That includes the smell of fecal matter, if the bowel and lower intestines are opened, plus the contents of the upper intestines and stomach, which can smell like vomit, and any decomposition that begins, and can begin very quickly in a warm room. It won't be just the smell of blood.

[DVV]

Hi all,
To respond to a point within your last rebuttal post to me Jon, regarding Hutchinson, for me personally George Hutchinson was witness with an agenda. He came in to plant and "finger" a suspect using the guise provided to him by Sarah Lewis's Wideawake Hat Man story element. His story beginning is suspect...a Mary Kelly coming to him for some money....why, at that time of the night and why wasnt she hammered at the time....and it then offers us the best reason to reject his claims.....he says they were friends.
Tell me...what 'friend" would stand silently by for 4 days after the horrible murder of a friend before coming forward, conspicuously, after any people who actually knew Mary Kelly had already appeared in the Inquest that ended that same day? What genuine witness is "discarded" after 3 days?
If George was a planted storyline, then what about Carrie Maxwell?...you might ask My answer is that Carrie wanted to be part of the carnival and she used her very casual knowledge of the victim as her way in.

Cheers Jon

Hi Mike,
Good post.
The expression "using the guise of..." certainly fits Hutch : he's a fake.
And you're right : no friend would "stand silently by 4 days"...
...but the man who called himself Hutchinson at Commercial Street Police Station was really MJK's intimate.

[richardnunweek]

Hi DVV,
Ah so now I get it. the photo of George Hutchinson that we have[ Topping] is Kelly's ex[known her about three years seems right] he simply used the name Joe Fleming whilst courting her, but did not want to admit that, when presenting himself under his real name.
People used alias's all the time , especially ones that associated with prostitutes,[ still do..not that I have first hand knowledge]
Actually seriously, it is possible that Hutch was Fleming, rather like the man Kelly[ according to McCarthy] who was indeed Barnett., but simply.. although he came forward did not wish to identify himself as, anything more then his real name George Hutchinson.
But was he innocent of murder?
Regards Richard.

[DVV]

But was he innocent of murder?
Regards Richard.

Of course he was, Richard.
Wasn't the Ripper Sir Randolph ?

[Sally]

I uised to wonder if Fleming and Hutchinson were one and the same. I still think there might be a connection between them: they may well have been at the Victoria Home at the same time; and if it is true that they were both close to Kelly and had known her for 3 years, it might be expected that they knew each other.

I no longer think that they were one and the same though. I think Hutchinson was probably himself.

[DVV]

I uised to wonder if Fleming and Hutchinson were one and the same. I still think there might be a connection between them: they may well have been at the Victoria Home at the same time; and if it is true that they were both close to Kelly and had known her for 3 years, it might be expected that they knew each other.

I no longer think that they were one and the same though. I think Hutchinson was probably himself.

Hi Sally

That they knew each other, had known MJK for 3 years (ie : from another area) and were dossing in the same place at the time of the murders would be even more extraordinary.
And while he was at it, why didn't Hutch (who, once he started talking, talked too much) reveal to Abberline that he knew a guy from the VH who could provide additional info on MJK ?

[Sally]

Hi David

That they knew each other, had known MJK for 3 years (ie : from another area) and were dossing in the same place at the time of the murders would be even more extraordinary.

Yes, I used to be of the same opinion. Then I learned a bit more about the VH and the sort of people who lodged there, and I changed my mind. Now I don't think it would be that extraordinary.

And while he was at it, why didn't Hutch (who, once he started talking, talked too much) reveal to Abberline that he knew a guy from the VH who could provide additional info on MJK ?

I don't know the answer to that one. It depends on whether you think he really wanted to help, or whether his motives for coming forward were self-serving. If the latter, there is no reason for him to mention Fleming - it wouldn't have helped him because it would have shifted the press attention - which he obviously courted - elsewhere.

Another possibility is that Fleming did know Hutchinson, who was not at the VH at that time, and used his identity. There are problems with that, too - but I think that Hutchinson was real; whether or not he was the man giving the witness statement is impossible to know for certain.

[DVV]

Hi David
Yes, I used to be of the same opinion. Then I learned a bit more about the VH and the sort of people who lodged there, and I changed my mind. Now I don't think it would be that extraordinary.

I'm afraid it would be that extraordinary, Sally. To the coincidences already pointed out, you'd have to add Hutch's presence in Dorset Street, on a cold night, at 2.00.

I don't know the answer to that one. It depends on whether you think he really wanted to help, or whether his motives for coming forward were self-serving. If the latter, there is no reason for him to mention Fleming - it wouldn't have helped him because it would have shifted the press attention - which he obviously courted - elsewhere.

If the latter, then what about Fleming ? He would be innocent in that case, so why didn't he come forward ?

Another possibility is that Fleming did know Hutchinson, who was not at the VH at that time, and used his identity. There are problems with that, too - but I think that Hutchinson was real

I agree, Sally, there are problems (big ones) with this scenario. What makes you think Hutch was real, lastly ?

[Sally]

I'm afraid it would be that extraordinary, Sally. To the coincidences already pointed out, you'd have to add Hutch's presence in Dorset Street, on a cold night, at 2.00.

No, I don't think it would. For a working man down on his luck (for whatever reason) the VH was the obvious choice. It was not like other clhs at the time, and carried a respectability that was distinctly absent elsewhere. If Hutchinson was such a man, why not the VH?

Additionally, we don't actually know that Fleming was there at the time - we assume so because that's where he came from to the infirmary - but that was some time later. I'm certainly not discounting the possibility, but in fact he could have been anywhere when Kelly was killed.

If the latter, then what about Fleming ? He would be innocent in that case, so why didn't he come forward ?

Again, we don't know that he didn't come forward. We have to ask ourselves whether we'd know about it if he had? It depends, surely, on whether he went to the press or not. If we didn't have original documentation with respect to Hutchinson's coming forward, and he hadn't gone to the press, we wouldn't know of his existence - and we know from contemporary press reports that a great many people did come forward. Say Fleming did come forward - what would he have said? If he hadn't seen Kelly for a few weeks, he'd have had nothing to add to the police investigation. Hutchinson was a big sensation not because he claimed to have known Kelly, but because he claimed to have been one of the last people to see her alive.

[DVV]

For a working man down on his luck (for whatever reason) the VH was the obvious choice. It was not like other clhs at the time, and carried a respectability that was distinctly absent elsewhere. If Hutchinson was such a man, why not the VH?

The same would be true for Fleming, who was initially in the building trade, and then a dock labourer, or even (perhaps) a costermonger.

I'm certainly not discounting the possibility, but in fact he could have been anywhere when Kelly was killed.

Wise enough, Sally, since the only evidence we possess leads us to the Victoria Home. Well, there may be another one (see above), since the groom was no longer a groom in 1888, and the plasterer no more a plasterer.

Again, we don't know that he didn't come forward.

Oh, but he did. Not as Fleming, though. Had the ex-fiancé come forward, we would probably know. He was mentioned at the inquest, wasn't he ? We also heard about people that had known Kelly less intimately than he.

Say Fleming did come forward - what would he have said?

"Hey, I'm the one who used to ill-use the victim !"