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I Think MJK was Welsh with Irish Ancestry

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by erobitha View Post
    I have a hunch that many of you researching this for many years might ultimately be surprised at how close you were to unravelling her back story. My feeling is Kelly was not the surname she was born with and is one she appropriated. But I also believe much of what she said did have rings of truth. Whatever deception she did, she felt was for own benefit but I don’t believe she deceived for any other reason than to escape her past and try and not be poor. Most likely from young age she saw men as a means to achieve that.
    The most convincing lies are ones that contain some truths, and as you say, I think thats what the Mary Jane Kelly assumed identity contains. Some truth. Its why there appears at times someone has found the trail but is unable to absolutely connect the dots in her known backstory.

    I feel that her real life story might have been known by the person who killed her, and that he was in my opinion known by this woman pretty intimately. Which makes a reason for her murder hard to see clearly....was this personal, or business? Killed for what she had done, for what she knew, for reasons of perceived betrayal or disloyalty, ....if the man knew her well, which it appears by the evidence he must have, then a true motive might be found somewhere within her real identity. Which we cant find.

    Whats really crucial with this murder investigation are the differences from Polly and Annies murders, not the fact they were all done with sharp knives. It appears Marys killer didnt pick a stranger off the street. There is no other Ripper murder where that type of killer profile is suggested...in all the other cases there has been no link proven between any one victim to another, nor to any one suspect. Pollys and Annies killer was almost assuredly unknown to them, Mary on the other hand knew her killer.
    Last edited by Michael W Richards; 07-31-2020, 10:44 AM.

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  • erobitha
    replied
    I have a hunch that many of you researching this for many years might ultimately be surprised at how close you were to unravelling her back story. My feeling is Kelly was not the surname she was born with and is one she appropriated. But I also believe much of what she said did have rings of truth. Whatever deception she did, she felt was for own benefit but I don’t believe she deceived for any other reason than to escape her past and try and not be poor. Most likely from young age she saw men as a means to achieve that.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    My point on the dresses cd is that at one point her station in life was considerably better, presumably at the same time she was working in a better sort of establishment. In terms of why she was killed, I don't necessarily connect that with her perhaps living under an alias. Those 2 facts may just have collided is all. I believe the person who killed her had some kind of intimate relationship that didn't involve pay for play...perhaps not overtly anyway,....and he was angry..then lost.

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Hell, any number of people could have made it up, but we do have corroborative accounts that she had nice dresses at one time.
    Hello Michael,

    But all that tells is is that she had nice dresses at one time. That's it. Now could she have absconded with those dresses and could her killing have been in retaliation for that? Sure, but we have no evidence for coming to that conclusion. And even if she had somehow gotten on the wrong side of the wrong people at one point in her life why not just simply cut her throat and be done with it? If they wanted to send a message that this is what happens when you cross us wouldn't her death have been enough? Would they really feel a need to do all of those mutilations?

    Without out evidence this line of inquiry is pure speculation.

    c.d.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post

    Tbh, we don't KNOW any of this. MJK could've made it up.
    Hell, any number of people could have made it up, but we do have corroborative accounts that she had nice dresses at one time.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post


    Where is the evidence she fled after a fortnight? Even the term "fled" insinuates that she was fleeing from something. Could it possibly be she as a young woman was groomed into believing a lifestyle would be something it wasn't so she returned home because shock, horror- she didn't like it. You also say dressed in finery at the brothel as if this was something that would keep her there. We have no idea on the conditions at the brothel nor do we know what sort of sexual stuff went on. I fear it would shock us to our core if we did. I find the whole thing to be insulting as an Irishman. If Kelly was not Irish would the Terrorist route even be considered? Just because she was Irish does not mean she had any links. Indeed most of Ireland at that time was more concerned with the Land issue and tenants rights rather than the seperatism espoused mainly by Irish American Clan na Gael operatives
    There is a story that she fled "after a fortnight", just like there is a story about almost everything we know of this woman. She had nice dresses from that time in her life Sunny, that alone suggests the environment in the brothel. I think again you missed a main point....its nothing to do with whether she was Irish or not, I think more to do with the people she may have met in one of her iterations.

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  • Harry D
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Im not sure what you envision others might suggest cd, but for me its the fact that we have history that may well contain the answers as to why she may have created, or had created for her, an alias. We know she was dressed in finery when at the brothel, we know that she escorted someone to Paris...presumably on a "work " assignment from the brothel. we know that Paris was a hotbed for terrorists, spies, and London Authorities at that time, we know she fled suddenly back to London after a fortnight, and we see her a few years later in squallid conditions while we hear she is still considered pretty by many.

    Why would she give up fancy dresses and trips to Paris so suddenly? Is that a reason she was trying to stay under the radar?
    Tbh, we don't KNOW any of this. MJK could've made it up.

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  • Sunny Delight
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Im not sure what you envision others might suggest cd, but for me its the fact that we have history that may well contain the answers as to why she may have created, or had created for her, an alias. We know she was dressed in finery when at the brothel, we know that she escorted someone to Paris...presumably on a "work " assignment from the brothel. we know that Paris was a hotbed for terrorists, spies, and London Authorities at that time, we know she fled suddenly back to London after a fortnight, and we see her a few years later in squallid conditions while we hear she is still considered pretty by many.

    Why would she give up fancy dresses and trips to Paris so suddenly? Is that a reason she was trying to stay under the radar?

    Where is the evidence she fled after a fortnight? Even the term "fled" insinuates that she was fleeing from something. Could it possibly be she as a young woman was groomed into believing a lifestyle would be something it wasn't so she returned home because shock, horror- she didn't like it. You also say dressed in finery at the brothel as if this was something that would keep her there. We have no idea on the conditions at the brothel nor do we know what sort of sexual stuff went on. I fear it would shock us to our core if we did. I find the whole thing to be insulting as an Irishman. If Kelly was not Irish would the Terrorist route even be considered? Just because she was Irish does not mean she had any links. Indeed most of Ireland at that time was more concerned with the Land issue and tenants rights rather than the seperatism espoused mainly by Irish American Clan na Gael operatives

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Why would she give up fancy dresses and trips to Paris so suddenly? Is that a reason she was trying to stay under the radar?

    Maybe, but then again, maybe not. Hence the problem.

    c.d.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Im not sure what you envision others might suggest cd, but for me its the fact that we have history that may well contain the answers as to why she may have created, or had created for her, an alias. We know she was dressed in finery when at the brothel, we know that she escorted someone to Paris...presumably on a "work " assignment from the brothel. we know that Paris was a hotbed for terrorists, spies, and London Authorities at that time, we know she fled suddenly back to London after a fortnight, and we see her a few years later in squallid conditions while we hear she is still considered pretty by many.

    Why would she give up fancy dresses and trips to Paris so suddenly? Is that a reason she was trying to stay under the radar?
    Last edited by Michael W Richards; 07-06-2020, 12:27 PM.

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Kelly may or may not have been her real last name. But even if she made it up I see no reason to immediately leap to the conclusion that she was targeted or that the police were involved in some sort of cover up. A much more likely and realistic explanation is that she simply wanted her true identity to remain unknown. Maybe it was shame in being a prostitute or possibly escaping an abusive husband or boyfriend. Maybe she had robbed a previous employer.

    Invoking Occam's razor, this seems much more likely than far fetched scenarios that are intriguing but have no evidence to support them.

    c.d.

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  • etenguy
    replied
    Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
    I agree with MsWeatherMax. The Miller's Court victim true surname wasn't Kelly.

    I strongly believe that Jack's identity was known to the authorities and he was protected. I believe "Kelly" was targeted and she had a connection
    to JTR and/or Astrakhan. Therefore the authorities would not have allowed her true surname to be published. Looking to identify "Kelly" as Kelly
    is, unfortunately, a waste of time and effort.

    Martyn
    I don't exclude a cover-up scenario, the authorities have a history of this. However, they are pretty bad at them and to keep the cover up secret for so long would be unusual. Though I guess we never hear about the successful ones.

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  • etenguy
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    I obviously tend to agree with that, but Im curious why some elements of the backstory ring true. They just don't tie together in anything that can be traced to one name so far. I think she created the story that Barnett says she gave, and took things from her knowledge of other people as her own. I don't believe she had the story given to her or Barnett, as in some kind of situation where she is in hiding with a false identity given to her. But I do think she wanted anonymity. To get lost in a crowd. Where better to find a crowd than Dorset Street. Buildings bulged with transients.
    I agree - it is always more effective when you wrap a lie in the truth.

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  • Sunny Delight
    replied
    Mary Jane Kelly was most likely born in Ireland as Barnett told the inquest. She would have had no reason to lie about her ancestry. If she was as thought between 23-28 years old it is absolutely no suprise that in the 1860's her and her family moved from Limerick to England. Ireland at this time saw huge amounts of emigration. The joke here in Ireland is that we built half of England but forgot about ourselves. It was also normal for Irishmen to join the British Army at this time. Indeed it was quite normal right up until 1918 after which there was a rise of Republicanism and Seperatism. The 1921 Anglo-Irish treaty gave Ireland its own standing army. Despite that some still join British regiments even today. Her story does not seem out of the ordinary- in fact for someone born in Ireland at the time it was completely normal.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by SuspectZero View Post
    We will never know her true name.
    I obviously tend to agree with that, but Im curious why some elements of the backstory ring true. They just don't tie together in anything that can be traced to one name so far. I think she created the story that Barnett says she gave, and took things from her knowledge of other people as her own. I don't believe she had the story given to her or Barnett, as in some kind of situation where she is in hiding with a false identity given to her. But I do think she wanted anonymity. To get lost in a crowd. Where better to find a crowd than Dorset Street. Buildings bulged with transients.

    Leave a comment:

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