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I Think MJK was Welsh with Irish Ancestry

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  • I Think MJK was Welsh with Irish Ancestry

    Sorry, it's my annual "Ponder MJK Week", apparently.

    I know this is flimsy, but one of the few things we know is that Mary used to get letters from her brother, Johnto/Jonto. I just can't get past the possibility that this is a misspelling or Anglicisation of 'Ianto', which is Welsh for John.

    An Irish family would surely not name or nickname their child with a very traditional Welsh name?

    I feel like perhaps Mary had one Irish parent, or Irish grandparents (or further back!), and has used that heritage as the foundations of the very elaborate backstory we now 'know'.

    In short, I think Ireland is a dead end. I feel like it's more likely that Mary was born in Wales to the descendants of an Irish family.

    All immaterial, because I honestly doubt that the names Kelly or Davies bear any relation to her real name, and I don't think it'll make her any easier to trace. Just a thought, really.

  • #2
    Below is a post from 9/5/2017.
    The family tree is research by our very own "Paddy".
    Most bases are filled , John Two, Fair Emma,etc.
    Mary Ann Kelly was baptized at St. Leonard's Church where Henry Gawen Sutton was Vestry Board Medical Officer during her childhood.
    It is the same Church/Town Hall where her Inquest was held and her body stored.


    Reckon this is our Mary Kelly.

    Turned up in the 1881 Census being treated for VD.

    Oldest brother,Jno, married Louisa and lived in Turville Street during the 1881 Census.
    Old Nichol.

    Think a lot of Peartree Court slum was torn down and rebuilt early 1880s.




    Mary A Kelly
    England and Wales Census, 1861
    Name Mary A Kelly
    County London, Middlesex
    Event Type Census
    Event Date 1861
    Event Place St Leonard Shoreditch, London, Middlesex, England
    Ecclesiastical Parish St Leonard Shoreditch
    Registration District Shoreditch
    Residence Note Pear Tree Court
    Gender Female
    Age 2
    Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
    Birth Year (Estimated) 1859
    Birthplace Shoreditch, Middlesex
    Page Number 11
    Registration Number RG09
    Piece/Folio 235 / 66
    Affiliate Record Type Household
    Household

    Role

    Sex

    Age

    Birthplace
    John Kelly Head M 43 Bishopsgate, Middlesex
    Emma Kelly Wife F 42 St Luke, Middlesex
    John Kelly Son M 22 Shoreditch, Middlesex
    James Kelly Son M 19 Shoreditch, Middlesex
    Edward Kelly Son M 16 Shoreditch, Middlesex
    Henry Kelly Son M 12 Shoreditch, Middlesex
    Emma Kelly Daughter F 7 Shoreditch, Middlesex
    Mary A Kelly Daughter F 2 Shoreditch, Middlesex
    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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    • #3
      1. MsWeatherwas thanks for the starting this thread.

      2. DJA, if MJK is London born, that's opens up some interesting questions as to regard to Joe Barnett's testimony and also the integrity of the inquest, no?

      3. Tonight's Whitechapel Society Interims topic will be "Why can't Mary Jane Kelly be found?", which I'm looking forward to.

      Was JB's nervousness due to him knowing he was telling some porkies?

      Martyn
      Write something...

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      • #4
        The whole shebang was an enormous cover up to ensure Sutton was not arrested.He was being blackmailed ..... again.

        Reckon both Eddowes' and Mary Ann Kelly's defactos only knew part of the story.

        Kidney,Stride's ex, telling the cops he required a strange young detective in order to catch "Jack" infers he had some idea.Naive though.

        Remember Mary Ann Kelly worked in a gay house several years before the five murders.
        A visit to Le Chabanais run by Madame Kelly AKA Alexandrine Joannet would have inspired her new monicker.

        The Labouchere Amendment on 7th August 1885 was the turning point.

        MAK was living her own witness protection scheme.

        Enjoy tonight!
        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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        • #5
          Interesting quote in Henry Sutton's obituary about him "feeling his way" into a patient and "no doctor relied more on his sense of touch".

          Could be useful for finding organs in the dark...
          Them's the vagaries.

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          • #6
            Yep.

            His BMJ obituary is full of interesting observations.

            Quite possibly a high functioning Asperger.

            Lectured with his left thumb in his trousers pocket.

            "He possessed an amiability and delicacy of character which was almost womanlike .... "

            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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            • #7
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              • #8
                Ripper mate,as we say in Oz.

                Any addresses for those Bethnal Green Kelly's?

                Especially in the vicinity of Squirries Street and Bethnal Green Road (305).
                Am aware there were number changes about then,possibly with 1870/71 being pivotal.
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                • #9
                  Dave.... Henry Kelly 1871...4 Mount street Bethnal Green / 1881 5 st Peter Street Bethnal Green / 1891 With brother Edward saying he is single at 13 Doddsleys Folley Shoreditch st Leonard....

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
                    Interesting quote in Henry Sutton's obituary about him "feeling his way" into a patient and "no doctor relied more on his sense of touch".

                    Could be useful for finding organs in the dark...
                    Bit OT however, note how soon after arriving in Thrawl Street, where Eddowes was looking after her sister Eliza Gold,Nichols moves next door to Eddowes.

                    Eddowes is off hopping and returns seeking a reward.

                    Some people cannot see that these two were old acquaintances ..... from December 1867 when they were Sutton's inpatients.

                    The "post mortem" in Mitre Square was actually carefully targeted, as pointed out previously.

                    Not to mention how close to The London Hospital Nichols was murdered.
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paddy View Post
                      Dave.... Henry Kelly 1871...4 Mount street Bethnal Green / 1881 5 st Peter Street Bethnal Green / 1891 With brother Edward saying he is single at 13 Doddsleys Folley Shoreditch st Leonard....
                      Thanks very much Paddy.Shall have a better look a bit later.Flat out right now.

                      "Neither the vestry nor the M.B.W. were anxious to tackle the worst slum, the Nichol. In 1883 the board dismissed as 'too small' an appeal by Shoreditch's medical officer of health to deal with Boundary Street involving only 29 houses (fn. 79) and as too big a scheme by Bethnal Green's medical officer to demolish all the houses in the Nichol under the Artisans' Dwelling Act. Instead the board decided to apply the Torrens Act requiring owners to repair and render the premises 'tolerably comfortable' "

                      Guess who Shoreditch's medical officer of health was

                      Worth noting the Carter families' history in the area.

                      Bethnal Green: Building and Social Conditions from 1876 to 1914 | British History Online

                      Bethnal Green: The West, Shoreditch Side, Spitalfields, and the Nichol | British History Online
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                      • #12
                        Dave, Could only find James in one census 1871 living at 9 Turville street......Cant find him or wife after that...

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                        • #13
                          Thanks Paddy.

                          Corner of Old Nichol Street.
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                          • #14
                            I find the 1891 census in 13 Millers court interesting.....There is a Thomas Kelly (dock labourer) living in there with his wife Ann. He is supposed to have been born in 1856 in Spitalfields. The only one I can find anywhere near this chap is a Thomas Kelly born 1852 Spitalfields. He was the son of a Francis and Ellen Kelly and dad was a superannuated Policeman ?? They appeared to have moved to Whitechapel and St George in the east after he was born. If it is him. Cant seem to find him anywhere after 1891.

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                            • #15
                              "A girl by the name of Mary Jane Kelly was baptised in Castleconnell, Co Limerick, on 31 March 1863. Her parents, and eight or nine brothers and sisters, occupied a small house in Mungret Street. The failure of the potato crop had led to riots in Limerick in 1830, and during the Great Famine hundreds of evicted tenants fled into the city to seek work. Discovering there was none, they queued outside the workhouses for a bed, or made for the quays — the departure points for US, Canada and Australia. When Mary Jane was still a child, Mr Kelly moved the family to Carmarthen in Wales to look for work. The girl hawked ribbon and thread around the town."

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