Exhumation

[MsWeatherwax]

It's always wishful thinking with me and MJK, but I do wonder if it would truly be as hard to locate her burial as it's made out to be.

People talk like she was dropped directly into the earth, but the sexton of a local church paid for her burial and she was laid to rest in an oak and elm coffin with metal fittings and a brass nameplate, inscribed with her name, date of death and age. The metal fittings on coffins of that period were often quite substantial. I feel like, if the coffin remains intact (and I know there's a good chance that it does not) it would be reasonably easy to identify next to the cheap pine boxes used for paupers burials.

I don't particularly feel that Mary is the key to the mystery, or that finally identifying her will shed any light on what really happened. I just think she had a short, hard life, a horrific death, and even now we're sitting here looking at those horrible pictures of her. It's a slim hope, but giving her a proper burial under her real name would just restore some of the dignity she wasn't allowed to have in life or even death.

[Trapperologist]

Even without all the other evidence weighing in favor of the DNA evidence, I'd go with the DNA.

[Michael W Richards]

As I've said before, Barnett would almost certainly have recognised a lot more, but one or two distinguishing features would have sufficed for the record. It would have been wholly unnecessary - and more than a bit ridiculous - to expect him to have said, for example, "I recognise her by the hair, eyes, ears, teeth, her hands and feet, her fingers and toes, a mole on her left shoulder-blade and a birthmark on her right shin...", all of which were left unscathed by the killer's knife.

I agree Sam, he probably only could view a portion of her anyway, contrary to some reports that had him id her from the window.

That being said, if he was only able to see a fraction of her, even with his confidence in 2 features, Is that sufficient to

positively ID her as the woman he knew as Mary Jane Kelly? One feature is hair color, something that was easily available in bottled product, and likely not a shade or color unique to only Mary Kelly anyway..

[Sam Flynn]

re we certain by the 2 features Barnett says he recognized that the woman was indeed the same woman who identified herself as such?

As I've said before, Barnett would almost certainly have recognised a lot more, but one or two distinguishing features would have sufficed for the record. It would have been wholly unnecessary - and more than a bit ridiculous - to expect him to have said, for example, "I recognise her by the hair, eyes, ears, teeth, her hands and feet, her fingers and toes, a mole on her left shoulder-blade and a birthmark on her right shin...", all of which were left unscathed by the killer's knife.

[Michael W Richards]

It is referred to as the Emerlad Isle - not Green Island. Perhaps your local celtics who are familar with such local folksongs would know the difference. I have provided a screenshot from the baptism register from the church in Castleconnell, Co. Limerick were Mary Kelly was baptised dated March 31st 1863 - 25 years before Mary Jane Kelly was murdered in Dorset Street. Age and locations are very inetresting. This Mary Kelly's father Michal Kelly was from Newport in Wales. Now we have a Welsh connection. You might not see this as evidence, but it's not bad in my view.

In Irish Catholic tradition the middle name is assigned at confirmation age. She most likely wished to be called by her christian and confirmation name together as Mary Jane as she got older to give her a uniqueness from the many thousands of Mary Kelly's that roamed Ireland and the UK.

I have quite a few friends who have ventured on golf trips to the "Emerald Isle", I used the term I did because its what we call it. Perhaps the golf aspect wasn't something obviously clear. Look, Im not saying that the mysteries cannot be solved, or that your find isn't the one we are looking for, Im saying its been elusive all these years and when occasionally someone claims to have solved something it most often turns out badly for all involved. A natural skepticism does, and frankly should, exist.

Ill throw this in the mix though, the presumption with your research is that the woman in bed in room 13 was in fact the same Mary Jane Kelly that you look for. Could someone just adopt a history in those days? Are we certain by the 2 features Barnett says he recognized that the woman was indeed the same woman who identified herself as such? Is the doppelganger Mary Jane a way for the real Mary Jane to slip away?

The devastation wreaked upon the woman we know as Mary Kelly seems to me far beyond what a staged murder might look like, I cant imagine someone who didn't crave doing that to do it just so it would appear to be by someone else, albeit someone still unknown. So its either someone went nuts in that room, or someone was already nuts and went to an extreme. I think what may be a key here is the powerful emotions, potentially explosive, that exist between people who are lovers. She was in a love triangle, this by her own admission. Having loved someone, then feeling betrayed..yet still emotionally attached to the person, could result in explosive anger with a violence prone person...."the other Joe...he treated her badly"...slashing at the face back and forth, defeating defensive motions with a blade, near decapitation...the extra carnage might be a result of a loss of all inhibition, and morality. Someone already condemned .

[erobitha]

Erobitha, Are their any census records of Michael and Ellen in Wales ? I had a quick look but nothing came up.

Miss Marple

His name was Michal (not Michael) Kelly - check Welsh census. He was born in Newport. There is a Michal Kelly born in Newport in 1811. I think which means he was in his 50’s when Mary Jane was born - if indeed correct.

[miss marple]

Erobitha, Are their any census records of Michael and Ellen in Wales ? I had a quick look but nothing came up.

Miss Marple

[erobitha]

I think you got your answer earlier, but folksongs or traditional songs from a variety or national sources are sung frequently in this neck of the woods, a welsh person could very easily be familiar with tunes from the green island.

The fact remains that none of the story we are given.. primarily by Barnett.. according to what he says he was told,... has been provable.

It is referred to as the Emerlad Isle - not Green Island. Perhaps your local celtics who are familar with such local folksongs would know the difference. I have provided a screenshot from the baptism register from the church in Castleconnell, Co. Limerick were Mary Kelly was baptised dated March 31st 1863 - 25 years before Mary Jane Kelly was murdered in Dorset Street. Age and locations are very inetresting. This Mary Kelly's father Michal Kelly was from Newport in Wales. Now we have a Welsh connection. You might not see this as evidence, but it's not bad in my view.

In Irish Catholic tradition the middle name is assigned at confirmation age. She most likely wished to be called by her christian and confirmation name together as Mary Jane as she got older to give her a uniqueness from the many thousands of Mary Kelly's that roamed Ireland and the UK.

[Michael W Richards]

I think you and I are destined to never agree on anything.

She sang Irish songs whilst drunk, why would she do if she was Welsh?

Taken from last week's Irish Examiner:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...ly-960082.html

"A girl by the name of Mary Jane Kelly was baptised in Castleconnell, Co Limerick, on 31 March 1863. Her parents, and eight or nine brothers and sisters, occupied a small house in Mungret Street. The failure of the potato crop had led to riots in Limerick in 1830, and during the Great Famine hundreds of evicted tenants fled into the city to seek work. Discovering there was none, they queued outside the workhouses for a bed, or made for the quays — the departure points for US, Canada and Australia. When Mary Jane was still a child, Mr Kelly moved the family to Carmarthen in Wales to look for work. The girl hawked ribbon and thread around the town."

I think you got your answer earlier, but folksongs or traditional songs from a variety or national sources are sung frequently in this neck of the woods, a welsh person could very easily be familiar with tunes from the green island.

The fact remains that none of the story we are given.. primarily by Barnett.. according to what he says he was told,... has been provable.

[erobitha]

By the way if anyone is interested Mary’s dad was Welsh from Newport born in 1811 with the name Michal Kelly and likely her mother Ellen was Irish - hence the moving around. But the surname Kelly is extremely common in Ireland and whilst I haven’t checked his parents lineage I would suspect the Irish Sea was more than likely crossed again during ancestry.

[erobitha]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...ly-960082.html

Hmm. Seems to be a well researched, quantifiable history of MJK, full of specific details about her entire life. Don't really know how all you lot missed that over the years?
Now, what's the best smiley face to represent sarcasm?

Did you find that smiley for sarcasm?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/lifestyle/features/tragic-saga-of-jack-the-rippers-irish-victim-mary-jane-kelly-960082.html

Hmm. Seems to be a well researched, quantifiable history of MJK, full of specific details about her entire life. Don't really know how all you lot missed that over the years?
Now, what's the best smiley face to represent sarcasm?

[erobitha]

Seriously erobitha? You need to come drinking round mine one night! Irish drinking music is the worlds universal language, regardless of where your from. Much impoverished is the life that's never combined hard drinkin' and Irish singin'.

Being Irish, from Limerick myself, I can assure you the songs she was most likely singing were unlikely of the jovial drinking variety. Much more of the famine / rebellion variety. A very different type of singing.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

She sang Irish songs whilst drunk, why would she do if she was Welsh?"

Seriously erobitha? You need to come drinking round mine one night! Irish drinking music is the worlds universal language, regardless of where your from. Much impoverished is the life that's never combined hard drinkin' and Irish singin'.

[erobitha]

Do we? Is that a given do you think? All we know of is a story given, and nothing in that story about her origins has been substantiated to-date.

I think you and I are destined to never agree on anything.

She sang Irish songs whilst drunk, why would she do if she was Welsh?

Taken from last week's Irish Examiner:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...ly-960082.html

"A girl by the name of Mary Jane Kelly was baptised in Castleconnell, Co Limerick, on 31 March 1863. Her parents, and eight or nine brothers and sisters, occupied a small house in Mungret Street. The failure of the potato crop had led to riots in Limerick in 1830, and during the Great Famine hundreds of evicted tenants fled into the city to seek work. Discovering there was none, they queued outside the workhouses for a bed, or made for the quays — the departure points for US, Canada and Australia. When Mary Jane was still a child, Mr Kelly moved the family to Carmarthen in Wales to look for work. The girl hawked ribbon and thread around the town."