Exhumation

[Trapperologist]

An impersonator can't die twice. An "impersonator" in Millers Court would be part of the Mary Kelly Survived Theory. That's different and I did believe it once but not now.

MJK died once, in 1888. "Jane Wilson", presumably MJW's sister in law, impersonating MJW in the 1892 workhouse registers died once, in 1918 I believe.

The rest hinges on what you think is the higher standard of evidence - a couple of public records in 1890 spearheaded by a woman who already committed crimes against workhouse registers and against every other public record... or AncestryDNA evidence. Even without all the other evidence weighing in favor of the DNA evidence, I'd go with the DNA.

[Trapperologist]

John Sears is the current cemetery super-intendent, and through his dedicated research into the cemetery records while comparing them with headstones which are still standing on old graves by the walls, he was able to find the correct location of the old row 67. From there it was relatively simple to pace out the position of Mary Jane's original resting place. During my conversation with John, he told me that the area of this gravesite is just a rough location, with a tolerance factor of approximately 3 feet: left or right of the centre line of the grave now considered by many, including himself, to be Mary Jane Kelly's true burial place.

And so in this year of 1997 Mary Jane Kelly now lies in row 22 under the 1947 numbering system.

https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...uneralmjk.html

[Roy Corduroy]

Thanks Trapper,

I remember reading a dissertation on here where they said they were able to pinpoint Mary's burial location to within three feet.

Have you since located the dissertation you remember reading here? What a coup that would be to announce you have located information on the Casebook website which directly contradicts the published research findings about this. How far are you along with locating the dissertation? Would you think it's so important that a bunch of us should spend full time searching through each and every dissertation until we find what you seem to remember?

Or do you agree that exhuming the grave at St Patrick's is physically and legally impossible and is never ever going to happen for all of the many reasons enumerated in the Leicester investigators' study which Sam so kindly posted the link to back on page 1?

As to your latest post, I see - you are not talking about solving her murder. You are talking about considering or reconsidering, as you put it, someone. Craig in the impossible scenario, or Joe Fleming in the other scenario. So we're actually talking about two different things. Solving, which is what to the average Joe like me thinks of when they think of DNA, versus considering or reconsidering, which is something we do here all day without needing any DNA at all.

You say exhuming Joe Fleming is doable. To get a legal order issued to exhume his grave to determine from DNA if he is the father of a child born in 1887, the mother of whom was Mary Jane Wilson (maiden name Kelly) a married woman from Liverpool who died in 1890 in Liverpool workhouse. But also - in 1888, the very same woman was impersonating Mary Jane Kelly and was murdered in London in 1888. The woman who died twice. Correct me if any of that is wrong. That is what you would be requesting the legal order to do.

Again, thank you because this is quite complex. You explained the Fleming part over at Howie's JTR Forums but I didn't quite get it until you explained again here just now.

Roy

[Trapperologist]

If knowing her identity would solve Mary Jane Kelly's murder, please explain how it would.

Well if it turned out she was Elizabeth Weston-Davies Craig, then Francis Craig, her husband, would have to be considered, if he isn't already. If Mary is a woman linked to any suspect, then that suspect would have to reconsidered.

With Elizabeth Davies, you'd have to exhume Mary Kelly. With Mary Jane Wilson, you don't because she had an illegitimate kid in 1887. You only have to dig up the presumed father and compare his DNA to a living great grandchild (the same one that came up a match with Joseph Fleming's fourth cousin). A great grandfather would share around 12.5% DNA (7-14%) same as a first cousin and, since someone from 1888 couldn't very well be a 1st cousin with a living person, he'd be the great grandfather.

Joseph Fleming is buried at Mount Chingford Cemetery which is not inner city and looks fairly big so it's probably doable.

[Roy Corduroy]

I remember reading a dissertation on here where they said they were able to pinpoint Mary's burial location to within three feet. I can't understand how that would mean rooting through up to 400 corpses. Those investigators hired by Cornwell make it seem like they plowed up the whole cemetery and planted a whole new crop of bodies. I don't doubt that some of the caskets were compromised and remains dropping and shifting onto other remains but nothing more serious than that. Do you think they might be a little reticent after finding out that King Richard III had presumably a common butcher in his lineage?

Hi I re-read your post, Trapper

I remember reading the dissertation on here for Suspects under Klosowski (Chapman) which stated Carrie Brown was murdered in Jersey City, New Jersey. Which is like saying Annie Chapman was murdered in Lambeth. I told Admin years ago and we had a good laugh. But it won't be fixed.

I re-read your post. One phone call to a person in the UK such as Evans, Begg, Phil Hutchinson, or any number of experts, one phone call by Cornwell, Weston-Davies, or the Leicester investigators at any time would have informed them of the absolute impossibility of locating Mary Kelly's remains. Exactly as explained in the completed research piece. All that was already well known. It had nothing at all to do with Richard III. No, those investigators' findings were correct in every way. Unless you have some different new information that they or no one else knows anything about. Do you?

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Trapper, yes I mean like those databases. The Golden State Killer was a real coup wasn't it. Hurray. I have no earthly idea about cousins or anything else about the details. I am clueless. Identifying a victim could be important in some criminal cases, sure. In this case it is a moot point many times over. Knowing Mary Jane Kelly's identity would not solve her murder or any of those in the Whitechapel series.

If knowing her identity would solve Mary Jane Kelly's murder, please explain how it would.

It's not gonna happen. Just the idea of digging up a portion of an East London Cemetery is a cringeworthy suggestion which would raise the issue given in the news story in the link in the above post. Did you read the newspaper article? If that link didn't work I can supply other links to news items which might work on your computer.

Let's just say this happens. A portion of an East London cemetery is dug up for this reason. And the citizens of Tower Hamlets would of course want to know why the whole darned cemetery could not be plowed under and the acreage converted to new use burying their loved ones today according to new religious practices. What would be your suggested reply to the current residents of Tower Hamlets?

And I am still not sure of what people who propose doing this are suggesting exactly. If you would like to explain how this would be done, please do. I don't know if you mean dig up the remains of hundreds of individuals and test them against Joe Fleming's supposed DNA line, or Mary Jane Wilson's DNA line, or the gentleman who wrote a book about his blood line (Davies maybe?) or just what you are suggesting. Is that what you are suggesting? Testing hundreds of sets of remains against - something. Does it have to do with DNA which Conrwell's team lifted from the letters or envelopes?

Again, I come up completely and totally clueless as to the actual procedures to be done, who would pay for them, how the authorities would be convinced to do it. How would you convince those in charge to do it?

Please be very, very, excruciatingly specific in exactly what you are suggesting. Again, I am totally clueless about what is proposed. I am however, up to speed on the reasons, layers upon layers of them, as to why it's not gonna happen.

And thank you in advance for your reply,

Roy

[Trapperologist]

And besides, there is nothing to compare Mary Jane Kelly's DNA to. Certainly not using one of those new databases which may contain Joe Fleming's DNA line (or maybe not) nor anything at all like that. Why do it? It would not solve a crime.

Roy

You mean the data bases like GEDmatch which “may contain” the Golden State Killer’s DNA? Or AncestryDNA which uploads to GEDmatch?

Isn’t it actually a virtual guarantee that you will find a cousin with at least 6-8 Cm of shared DNA depending on which site you use? Most debunkers will suggest that practically everyone has that much shared DNA so everyone’s 8th cousin or less, or have some other nebulous reason to dismiss a positive match.

As for solving a crime by identifying a victim, how can that possibility be totally ruled out in the case of MJK’s identity?

[Roy Corduroy]

Actually that was 2007 when the idea was broached to dig up Tower Hamlets cemetery and start over.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rial-site.html

So yes, you can imagine the authorities cringing when someone comes along with the bright idea to dig up a portion of an East London cemetery for the reason being discussed here. This is not to denigrate any poster. I am not trying to diss any newbie, I was one once and only wish I had a nickel for every time I was told "we already discussed that." It got to be like a comedy routine after awhile. So please no offense anyone. It's all good.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Trapper,

Exhumation is not feasible and is not going to happen under any circumstances. You may have read otherwise in a dissertation here but there are errors in some of them.

The short answer to your question about Exhumation is what folks told me when I first came to Casebook in 2008, this has already been discussed. It was discussed at some point since 2008. I'll be darned if I could find it, there are some 49 pages of Mary Kelly threads alone. But yes I remember it. Bonafide experts who used to post here, really top people who know Ripper lore and are knowledgeable in East End history discussed the impossibility of it.

Without question, there have been more burials in that section since 1888. On top of previous ones. It is absolutely impossible to locate her remains. And this was all known, discussed in full and put to bed - well before the Cornwell and Richard III studies.

Also, the authorities would never ever give their blessing for this to happen. It's not gonna happen. There is another factor: Recently the modern community of East London has requested for instance the entire Tower Hamlets Cemetery be plowed over or however they do that, then start over fresh with a brand new cemetery, because the new residents need a place to bury their loved ones. To raise the specter of digging up a portion of an East London cemetery is verbotten.

And besides, there is nothing to compare Mary Jane Kelly's DNA to. Certainly not using one of those new databases which may contain Joe Fleming's DNA line (or maybe not) nor anything at all like that. Why do it? It would not solve a crime.

Roy

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Indeed. A mondegreen specifically applies to misheard lyrics; the term "mondegreen" itself comes from the Scottish song, The Bonny Earl o' Moray, in which the refrain "They have slain the Earl o' Moray, and laid him on the green" was often misheard as "They have slain the Earl o' Moray, and Lady Mondegreen".

Two mondegreens of my own childhood were that well-known Beatles song Ollie Beak Is Love, and the "rich miller" who turns up to say "No! We will not let you go!" in Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody.

The Beatles - Ticket To Ride. Closes with the unforgettable refrain of " my baby donkey"

[Trapperologist]

Sam,

you’re a weapon of mass instruction!

PS For all intensive purposes, descent into a Rabbit Hole is a prerequisite.

[MrBarnett]

I'm afraid so, Gary, although I was only about 4 or 5 when he was in his heyday. I also rembember Pogles' Wood, so I must've been a proper telly addict back then

I still think of him as a newbie - ***** Cat Willum being Aunty Mu’s original pal.

I have a great grandad, a great aunt and, I would imagine, other family members buried in St. Patrick’s cemetery. I’ve no idea whether any of them are in the area that would be disturbed in any attempt to exhume MJK.

[Sam Flynn]

Surely you're not old enough to know who Ollie Beak was.

I'm afraid so, Gary, although I was only about 4 or 5 when he was in his heyday. I also rembember Pogles' Wood, so I must've been a proper telly addict back then

[MrBarnett]

Then allow me to correct myself, including the missed verb (cell phone problem) and say:

For all intents and purposes, Mary Kelly is English, or Welsh.

Is a malapropism a sign of intelligence or lack of it?

Its a warning: Beware Rabbit Holes.

[MrBarnett]

Indeed. A mondegreen specifically applies to misheard lyrics; the term "mondegreen" itself comes from the Scottish song, The Bonny Earl o' Moray, in which the refrain "They have slain the Earl o' Moray, and laid him on the green" was often misheard as "They have slain the Earl o' Moray, and Lady Mondegreen".

Two mondegreens of my own childhood were that well-known Beatles song Ollie Beak Is Love, and the "rich miller" who turns up to say "No! We will not let you go!" in Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody.

Surely you’re not old enough to know who Ollie Beak was.