Limerick, the Key?

[packers stem]

The Kilbehenny one might be worth delving a little deeper into.
Mary born 1862 and John in 1864.
I've always thought Henry might be a red herring and could be a middle name used because the father was also John..... Otherwise why Johnto or Ianto which is a Welsh variant of John.
Mothers maiden name was Mayes so that might be unusual enough to make some follow up investigation possible

[Robert]

Yes, that struck me too, Debs. Why the long delay? Missing records? Prison sentence? Maybe stillbirths?

Trying to trace this family in the Irish parish records seems problematic. The records for that area seem to decline in the LVP. On the other hand, they don't seem to show up over here either.

I'd always imagined Mary coming over to Wales soon after her birth, on account of the 'spoke fluent Welsh' report from one of her friends. But that might have been Mary just rattling off a few stock Welsh phrases to impress people. On the other hand, Alice's and Peter's births needn't mean that they weren't living here because as you know some Irish families did go back off and on for visits.

All rather murky.

[Sam Flynn]

This one maybe in 1881 census?

Mary Kelly, Unmarried, aged 23, Prostitute, Born Whitechapel.
I believe she was in local workhouse

I believe it's rather unlikely that "our" Mary Kelly was a local. For one thing, few people seem to have come forward following her death, which one wouldn't expect for a true local; for another, those who did come forward consistently affirmed that her roots were elsewhere and that she'd only arrived in London in recent years. This gains some (faint) support from the fact that nobody seems to have commented on her accent being inconsistent with her alleged pedigree; we have one or two reports of some kind of "speech impediment", or of her speaking Welsh, but no report of her being a "Cockney".

[MrBarnett]

Sam/Paddy,


On a number of occasions I've come across the place of residence being used as a default place of birth on the census. The most recent were the entries for Joseph Barnett and his wife in 1901. They are almost certainly MJK's Joseph (born in Whitechapel) and his wife, Emily (born in Bethnal Green?) who were living in St George in the East at the time and whose places of birth were given as STGITE.

I wouldn't dismiss this Mary Kelly on the basis of her reported place of birth. The age is approximately right, the occupation is right, and if you scroll down the census form you will find another resident of the Whitechapel Infirmary, a lamplighter's widow named Emma Davis, born, so we are told, at sea on a voyage from Canada.

If 'our' MJK's biography is a mixture of fact and fiction, here we have several of its elements ready to hand.

Gary

[Pierre]

If the only true thing Mary said was her birthplace then that's where one should start. I don't think she lied about that, most people have an attachment to their roots and if she had come from another part of Ireland she would have been found out and its all we have.
So PRESUMING she originates from Limerick, suppose she had another name, common in Limerick but had a family connection to Kelly.
The first twenty common names in Limerick in 19th century are as follows [ in order of number of households]
1 Ryan 2 O'Brien 3 Fitzgerald 4 Conners 5 Hayes 6 Walsh 7 Sullivan 8 Moloney 9 Burke 10 Murphy 11 Kelly 12 Mcnamara 13 O'Donell 14 Sheehan 15 Connell 16 Collins 17 McCarthy 18 Carroll 19 Hogan 20 Lynch

Now suppose one found a family in Limerick that fitted the criteria and went to WALES and one could find a brother in the Scots Guards that could crack if.
For example I looked at Ryan, O Brien Limerick births, nothing stood out, but I found the family of John Conners married to Mary Kelly,and several children born in Limerick, Mary, born 1865, Ellen born 1867 William 1869 James 1870 Patrick 1871 Bridget 1873 Thomas 1875.
I don think its her family no welsh connection, although there were Conners in Wales but the point is that Kelly could have been her mothers name or there could be a family with other including welsh connections
If there are any Scots Guards born in Limerick of the right age and is one of those twenty names, then it might be possible to trace the soldier back to his roots and siblings.
Just a thought.
Miss Marple

Hi,

I am sorry, byt what is the use? Why is the background of Kelly important? There were victims before her. Why should Kelly be a "key"?

Kind regards, Pierre

[packers stem]

Hi,

I am sorry, byt what is the use? Why is the background of Kelly important? There were victims before her. Why should Kelly be a "key"?

Kind regards, Pierre

There were a tiny number of Mary Kelly's in London around that time,it was a very uncommon name. The last two victims on the day of their death were believed to be or using that name when they met their end.
It would be foolish in the extreme to try pass this off as coincidence and ignore the importance....
Therefore Mary Kelly is all important and IS the key in many peoples eyes

[Sam Flynn]

If 'our' MJK's biography is a mixture of fact and fiction, here we have several of its elements ready to hand.

Indeed, but then so did "my" Mary Kelly from Bedwellty - possibly more elements, in fact. Born in Ireland (where isn't stipulated) she lived in a steel-working Welsh town near Cwmavon which, as I've noted, sounds rather like "Carmarthen/Carnarvon" to the unwary. She had family - including cousins - in Cardiff docklands, an area known for young girls leading "a bad life". Her family moved to Cardiff after having been split up between 1871 and 1881, during which time "Bedwellty Mary" seems to have disappeared; I've found no marriage, death or census records for her after 1871 at any rate. What I have found out is that her brother Denis was a soldier, and that he'd become a "lunatic" by 1891.

I know that my identification of the above with MJK has to be provisional, but I find the above elements rather intriguing, if only because they're so utterly distinctive to MJK's story. All that's really missing is the exploded husband!

[Robert]

Gareth there is an 1855 baptism for a Mary Jane Kelly, father Daniel, mother Mary Mullen, but in Dublin.

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth there is an 1855 baptism for a Mary Jane Kelly, father Daniel, mother Mary Mullen, but in Dublin.

Could be the same one, Robert. Thanks for that.

[Robert]

Been looking some more and haven't found Elizabeth. Also Margaret is a problem. I've found one who might be theirs but born 7 years before the birth year suggested by the 1861 census. There's another of right birth period but born in Clare. That one has father Daniel Kelly and mother Mary no surname.

[Debra A]

Yes, that struck me too, Debs. Why the long delay? Missing records? Prison sentence? Maybe stillbirths?

Trying to trace this family in the Irish parish records seems problematic. The records for that area seem to decline in the LVP. On the other hand, they don't seem to show up over here either.

I'd always imagined Mary coming over to Wales soon after her birth, on account of the 'spoke fluent Welsh' report from one of her friends. But that might have been Mary just rattling off a few stock Welsh phrases to impress people. On the other hand, Alice's and Peter's births needn't mean that they weren't living here because as you know some Irish families did go back off and on for visits.

All rather murky.

Hi Robert
Yes, the children names seem to disappear from the records if not the parents.


Thanks GUT.

[Bridewell]

The 1871 Census for England is showing Mary Ann Kelly born in 1864 in Limerick, Ireland. Shows the wife/mother is Margaret Kelly (also born in Limerick). Her occupation is Tailoress. No father is listed, which is curious as it clearly refers to Margaret as wife, not widow. Here sister is also named Margaret. They are all living in Whitechapel (St. Marks District) at 6 Chambers Street. Seems there might be a few families living at the same address.

Father might have been working away perhaps. Absence from the census record just means he wasn't there on the night the census was taken, not necessarily that he wasn't around.

[Bridewell]

there are made up elements to her story but I believe it to be basically true.

Thanks, Miss Marple. So do I. I've long wondered if MJK and her family were itinerants and missing from the census records for that reason.

[Bridewell]

So I cannot find a Mary that fits everything she has told various people but I did find a Mary that meets many of the criteria and happened to live next door to a collier named Davies. The family was born in Ireland, as was this Mary. She was born in 1864. She had 7 brothers (one was named John) and 1 sister (Elizabeth). They lived in Wales and Mary was there in 1881 but gone in 1901.

Is this Brymbo Mary?

[Debra A]

Gareth there is an 1855 baptism for a Mary Jane Kelly, father Daniel, mother Mary Mullen, but in Dublin.

Denis's army records say his father was John Kelly of Halkett St.

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