One Kelly family, in Wales.

[Chris Scott]

Some very impressive info in this thread Debs :-)

[Debra A]

And in 1911 Mary Jones gives her place of birth as Ballanslo!

[Debra A]

I think it's possible that Mary might be the same Mary Ann Kelly that married Griffith Jones in 1886 in Wrexham Denbighshire.
I am basing this solely on the fact that she gives her year of birth as c 1865 in Ireland, she's living in the right area( wrexham) and that in 1901 her youngest son was named Hubert Jones.
Only the marriage certificate would prove it either way though.

[Debra A]

So what's the state of play? Have we got any of this family before 1881? Do we have Michael, John, Hubert and Mary after 1881?

I posted their details from 1871, which shows they came to Wales after 1869/1870 when the last child was born in Ireland to April 1871 when the 1871 census was taken. There is also a daughter Bridget listed in 1871.

We know John married from the 1891 census entry I posted and Chris mentioned .

John after 1881

Here's John's marriage entry:

Name: KELLY, John
Registration district: [?] Wrexham County: Denbighshire
Year of registration: 1891
Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar Volume no: [?] 11B Page no: [?] 375

CHALONER, May Esther


Mary E/May Esther appears on the 1871 census as Esther, with her parents and siblings including brother Robert Chaloner who is listed as a brother in law, living with John and Mary Kelly in 1891.

It could be that this was John's second wife as they didn't marry until their son Hubert was 5 years old and there is a marriage entry for a John Kelly in 1885 in the same area.

I'll have a look for Hubert b 1861, Mary will be much more difficult to trace.

[PaulB]

This doesn't appear to be the right family, Paul. Hubert Kelly and Bridget Ruane also had a son named John in 1876 and also children Patrick and Bridget in the 70s.



Some of the other information on the Ancestry tree stating this is obviously incorrect, John's details for example. 'Our' John born 1857 was married to Mary E by 1891 and was born in Ireland not the US.

I thought the Ancestry tree was way out, but I wasn't sure about the Hubert and Bridget, though I thought they were wrong. So what's the state of play? Have we got any of this family before 1881? Do we have Michael, John, Hubert and Mary after 1881?

[Archaic]

This is going to sound very strange however there is an old lady who lived around the corner from me. She is still alive and probably about 96 now, i believe she is in a home currently.

A few years back i used to watch out for her and look after her garden, or help with a few things around the house. One day i was talking to her about the old days of the village and she got out lots of old photos of days gone by. I said something about loving old photos and spoke about my interest in the victorian times and also mentioned about the whitechapel murders and my fascination. She said something very strange which i have only now just tied in. She said something along the lines of "didnt one of them come from Brymbo?"........I know Brymbo because my mate used to play cricket for colwyn bay and bymbo was a place we used to often go and watch when he played. Being aware at the time of the Irish connection to Kelly and the swedish one to Stride, i didnt actually know which one she was referring to and probably dismissed her statement without actually in any way believing her.
Now this lady has lived in Flintshire all her life, she would have been born in the 1920s. Is it possible that she did know something i didnt or was this postulated long ago and she just took it as fact ( when it possibly wasnt ) ?

That's an interesting story, Jason; thanks for sharing it.

While this particular story might not turn out to be correct, I think it's important for Ripperologists to pay attention to what the "old-timers" said about the murders, and particularly about the victims. You never know when a bit of old oral history will end up being the clue we need to achieve a breakthrough- for example, a clue that might point us toward the true origins of Mary Kelly.

Thanks and best regards,
Archaic

PS: My thanks again to everybody for their tireless efforts to trace Mary Kelly and her family.

[Debra A]

Some 16 miles from Ballinasloe, Galway, is Mountbellow (sometimes Mount Bellow) where a Mary Kelly was born on 15 November 1865 to Hubert Kelly and Bridget (Ruane).

This doesn't appear to be the right family, Paul. Hubert Kelly and Bridget Ruane also had a son named John in 1876 and also children Patrick and Bridget in the 70s.

The Brymbo Mary Kelly has also been identified with the daughter of Hubert Thomas Kelly Sr. (1830 – 1883) and Bridget McClure (1834– ), who married Michael McDermott (1855–1935) in 1891 and emigrated to the United States where she had three children, (Mary, John Joseph, and Annie). I am not sure on what evidence the identification of Mary Kelly/McDermott is made.

Some of the other information on the Ancestry tree stating this is obviously incorrect, John's details for example. 'Our' John born 1857 was married to Mary E by 1891 and was born in Ireland not the US.

[Livia]

Probate: 1883

Hubert Thomas Kelly

Personal Estate £134

October 2. Administration of the Personal Estate of
Hubert Thomas Kelly formerly of Ballinasloe of Galway
County Ireland but late of Southsea in the parish of
Brymbo Denbigh Collier who died 14 August 1883 at
Southsea was granted at St Asaph at Southsea to
Bridget Kelly of Southsea widow the Relict.

[Debra A]

It's the John, Hubert (son), and Mary I've had trouble locating post-1881. The others I've have traced down to 1891.

Going by the name of his son, which does read Hubert on the original, I think this is probably John in 1891?

1891 census transcription details for: Lodge, Tai Rowland, Broughton

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12 Piece: 4615 Folio: 27 Page: 48


Reg. District: Wrexham Sub District: Wrexham
Parish: Broughton Enum. District: 8
Ecclesiastical District: Brymbo City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Lodge, Tai Rowland, Broughton
County: Denbighshire

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation ,
Disability Where Born
KELLY, John Head Married M 34 1857 Foreman Coal
Ireland
KELLY, Mary E Wife Married F 21 1870
Holt
Denbighshire
KELLY, Habert Geo Son M 5 1886
Broughton
Denbighshire
CHALLINER, Robert Brother In Law Widower M 28 1863 Coal Miner
Holt
Denbighshire
EDWARDS, Elizabeth Niece Single F 18 1873
Wrexham
Denbighshire

[Jason]

This is going to sound very strange however there is an old lady who lived around the corner from me. She is still alive and probably about 96 now, i believe she is in a home currently.

A few years back i used to watch out for her and look after her garden, or help with a few things around the house. One day i was talking to her about the old days of the village and she got out lots of old photos of days gone by. I said something about loving old photos and spoke about my interest in the victorian times and also mentioned about the whitechapel murders and my fascination. She said something very strange which i have only now just tied in. She said something along the lines of "didnt one of them come from Brymbo?"........I know Brymbo because my mate used to play cricket for colwyn bay and bymbo was a place we used to often go and watch when he played. Being aware at the time of the Irish connection to Kelly and the swedish one to Stride, i didnt actually know which one she was referring to and probably dismissed her statement without actually in any way believing her.
Now this lady has lived in Flintshire all her life, she would have been born in the 1920s. Is it possible that she did know something i didnt or was this postulated long ago and she just took it as fact ( when it possibly wasnt ) ?

[PaulB]

I thought it best to post the 1871 entry here too. This pinpoints the family's arrival in Wales to between 1870 and April 1871 and also gives us another sister for Mary.

1871 census transcription details for: Lodge, Brymbo

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10 Piece: 5654 Folio: 47 Page: 62


Reg. District: Wrexham Sub District: Wrexham
Parish: Brymbo Enum. District: 4
Ecclesiastical District: City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Lodge, Brymbo
County: Denbighshire

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
KELLY, Hubert Head M 38 1833 Ireland
KELLY, Bridget Wife F 36 1835 Ireland
KELLY, John Son M 14 1857 Ireland
KELLY, Bridget Daughter F 12 1859 Ireland
KELLY, Hubert Son M 10 1861 Ireland
KELLY, Mary A Daughter F 8 1863 Ireland
KELLY, Patrick Son M 3 1868 Ireland
KELLY, Elizabeth Daughter F 1 1870 Ireland

It's the John, Hubert (son), and Mary I've had trouble locating post-1881. The others I've have traced down to 1891.

[PaulB]

Some 16 miles from Ballinasloe, Galway, is Mountbellow (sometimes Mount Bellow) where a Mary Kelly was born on 15 November 1865 to Hubert Kelly and Bridget (Ruane).

The Brymbo Mary Kelly has also been identified with the daughter of Hubert Thomas Kelly Sr. (1830 – 1883) and Bridget McClure (1834– ), who married Michael McDermott (1855–1935) in 1891 and emigrated to the United States where she had three children, (Mary, John Joseph, and Annie). I am not sure on what evidence the identification of Mary Kelly/McDermott is made.

Oh, yes, she married this chap in Williamstown, which is close to Claremorris, where trawling through the cobwebbed archives of my aging memory I recall as somewhere that a Kelly in the Scots Guard hailed from.

[Debra A]

I thought it best to post the 1871 entry here too. This pinpoints the family's arrival in Wales to between 1870 and April 1871 and also gives us another sister for Mary.

1871 census transcription details for: Lodge, Brymbo

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10 Piece: 5654 Folio: 47 Page: 62


Reg. District: Wrexham Sub District: Wrexham
Parish: Brymbo Enum. District: 4
Ecclesiastical District: City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Lodge, Brymbo
County: Denbighshire

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
KELLY, Hubert Head M 38 1833 Ireland
KELLY, Bridget Wife F 36 1835 Ireland
KELLY, John Son M 14 1857 Ireland
KELLY, Bridget Daughter F 12 1859 Ireland
KELLY, Hubert Son M 10 1861 Ireland
KELLY, Mary A Daughter F 8 1863 Ireland
KELLY, Patrick Son M 3 1868 Ireland
KELLY, Elizabeth Daughter F 1 1870 Ireland

[Debra A]

Here's one of the old archive threads:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/5397.html

My last post on the last archived thread is about this family, Jon. It then continues onto the next page.
I don't recall why this Mary was positively ruled out, facts wise. I was also interested in her sister Bridget and got quite excited when her name appeared on a marriage entry alongside a man named Davis but it turned out she married the other guy on the page!

I did wonder if the youngest child, born in Ireland was perhaps a child of one of the other females in the family.

[Wickerman]

Although I have not yet located Mary's (from Brymbo) birth records, I have found both those of Patrick, who it states was born 08 Sept. 1867 at 27 Ballinasloe, Galway, IRE, and that of Elizabeth who was born on 06 April, 1870 at 32 Ballinasloe, Galway, IRE.
So we can see a slight difference in the birth years given previously.

Regards, Jon S.