Kellys in the Scots Guards

[PaulB]

Er, maybe you need to conduct a review of the literature, Paul. Not everyone is as even-handed as your good self.

Well, modesty forbade me drawing attention to the caution shown by the A to Z authors.

[Garry Wroe]

It would be nice to know one way or the other, Simon.

[PaulB]

Hi All,

Mrs Buki, a former landlady of Mary Kelly who lived off the Ratcliffe Highway and helped retrieve Kelly's box containing numerous costly dresses from a French lady's house in Knighsbridge, remains elusive, with not one census entry under this name, nor any birth, marriage or death.

It was therefore concluded some time ago that either Mrs. Buki and her involvement with Kelly was a complete invention by the apparently well-informed Mrs Phoenix [who was not called to the inquest], or her name as reported had been misspelt.

However, could Mrs Buki have been married to this chap?

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Regards,

Simon

It shows the surname was a real one, but then a search of BDMs throws up a fair few of them. Life's never simple.

[Garry Wroe]

Well, modesty forbade me drawing attention to the caution shown by the A to Z authors.

Cue Trevor ...

[PaulB]

Cue Trevor ...

Oh, for God's sake don't!

[Garry Wroe]

No, it doesn't. But would they have recognised her from the published descritpions, such as they are?

Again, Paul, that's precisely my point. The pre-London friends and associates would have needed no physical description had Kelly been living under her real name.

[Natalie Severn]

Thankyou for the compliment Lynn-I researched the Irish Republican movement in some depth a few years back but I am certainly no greater authority than Paul ,Debbs, you yourself, Simon, or RJ Palmer and several others. On the matter of the definition of 'fenians' I agree with Paul here that it is more of a blanket term than anything else ,referring to anybody who was fighting for Ireland's freedom from British rule.
But its true that I may come at all this from a different perspective sometimes.There were some hard cases among the fenians-no question-murderers and double agents aplenty as well as men and women of sterling courage and conviction.Of those who had integrity I have tended to have faith in Michael Davitt who later became an MP and who worked closely with Jenkinson to 'out' the role of Sir Robert Anderson in the destruction of Parnell and Home Rule before and during the Special Commission begun during the reign of terror in October in the Autumn of 1888.
Miss Worth appears to have belonged to Sir Edward Jenkinson's circle of ' agent/spies ' Her boarding house was at 16 Glasshouse Street [Piccadilly].On this occasion she had been sent by Jenkinson [unsuccessfully] to entrap the correspondent of a threatening letter that had been sent to the Prince of Wales [the letter was later discovered to have come from a man named Magee].James Monro became extremely interested in Miss Worth when he discovered she ran this boarding house advertised as a place where 'messengers' might receive employment -'Irishmen preferred' -the gullible may have fallen for it but it was used by Mr Jenkinson's 'unofficial army of informers and pavement artists' to entrap and watch Irishmen suspected of terrorist activities.
Jenkinson had been trashed by Monro and Anderson and got rid of -and furious, Jenkinson burnt all his papers from Dublin Castle so the pair could never trace his 'sources' properly .Not long after this Jenkinson set about getting his revenge an opportunity for which arrived when he conspired with Michael Davitt to ' out' Robert Anderson for his part in destroying the reputation of Parnell and Home Rule.
Now Davitt had been sentenced to 15 years in 1870 for gun running [ he was released from Dartmoor in 1877] . And this is a link I have often thought might connect him with Tumblety. Both Tumblety and Davitt came originally from Mayo in Ireland and it sounds as though it was a very hot breeding ground for Irish Republican activists and sympathisers .
So sweet of you Paul to say this about my book-I am flattered -and would be very interested to read any review you may write!
AtB
Norma

[Garry Wroe]

So, Mary Kelly was Mary something else, was tall and slender and short and stout and had chameleon hair which changed colour to suite - sounds about par for the course as far as witness descriptions are concerned.

But the problem is resolved with the exclusion of Maurice Lewis and Carrie Maxwell. This done, the descriptions of Kelly exhibit far more consistency.

[PaulB]

Thankyou for the compliment Lynn-I researched the Irish Republican movement in some depth a few years back but I am certainly no greater authority than Paul ,Debbs, you yourself, Simon, or RJ Palmer and several others. On the matter of the definition of 'fenians' I agree with Paul here that it is more of a blanket term than anything else ,referring to anybody who was fighting for Ireland's freedom from British rule.
But its true that I may come at all this from a different perspective sometimes.There were some hard cases among the fenians-no question-murderers and double agents aplenty as well as men and women of sterling courage and conviction.Of those who had integrity I have tended to have faith in Michael Davitt who later became an MP and who worked closely with Jenkinson to 'out' the role of Sir Robert Anderson in the destruction of Parnell and Home Rule before and during the Special Commission begun during the reign of terror in October in the Autumn of 1888.
Miss Worth appears to have belonged to Sir Edward Jenkinson's circle of ' agent/spies ' Her boarding house was at 16 Glasshouse Street [Piccadilly].On this occasion she had been sent by Jenkinson [unsuccessfully] to entrap the correspondent of a threatening letter that had been sent to the Prince of Wales [the letter was later discovered to have come from a man named Magee].James Monro became extremely interested in Miss Worth when he discovered she ran this boarding house advertised as a place where 'messengers' might receive employment -'Irishmen preferred' -the gullible may have fallen for it but it was used by Mr Jenkinson's 'unofficial army of informers and pavement artists' to entrap and watch Irishmen suspected of terrorist activities.
Jenkinson had been trashed by Monro and Anderson and got rid of -and furious, Jenkinson burnt all his papers from Dublin Castle so the pair could never trace his 'sources' properly .Not long after this Jenkinson set about getting his revenge an opportunity for which arrived when he conspired with Michael Davitt to ' out' Robert Anderson for his part in destroying the reputation of Parnell and Home Rule.
Now Davitt had been sentenced to 15 years in 1870 for gun running [ he was released from Dartmoor in 1877] . And this is a link I have often thought might connect him with Tumblety. Both Tumblety and Davitt came originally from Mayo in Ireland and it sounds as though it was a very hot breeding ground for Irish Republican activists and sympathisers .
So sweet of you Paul to say this about my book-I am flattered -and would be very interested to read any review you may write!
AtB
Norma

Hi Norma,
I regret to say that I would not be the best person to review your book as I am not in the least knowledgeable about the case, which to fairly review what looks to be a good and perhaps controversial take on the case would be a necessity. I don't really agree with your presentation of ANderson above, or Monro in this instance, as Jenkinson was clearly empire building in a big way and engaged in highly questionable tactics. He was also on a different political fence to Anderson which would have inevitably caused conflict between one highly principled man and another who was equally single-minded. The trouble is that we don't really know enough about Jenkinson, who would make the subject of a fascinating book (assuming the source material was there), and also there were other agents being run by others, like Pauncefote. Truly, a case of tangled webs and practicing deception...

[Simon Wood]

Hi Paul,

As spelled, BMD lists a Buki birth in 1900 and a marriage in 1934. LDS gives us two deaths, in 1979 and 1986. The name Buki also appears in various unconnected newspaper reports.

Slim pickings indeed but, with a fair likelihood of the name Buki being correct, one wonders why the remarkably well-informed Mrs Elizabeth Phoenix, who on 11th November took the trouble to give the Leman Street cops "a statement . . . which it is thought will satisfactorily establish the identity of the murdered woman", wasn't summoned next day to the Kelly inquest as a witness.

The only witnesses to appear were those who had first been interviewed on 9th November.

Regards,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Paul,
No problem about my book----
I do think Jenkinson had had his own idiosyncratic way of looking at things in Dublin Castle with his boss Earl Spencer.After his removal he became a Parnell supporter etc. and his network of agents were ,it appears, the source of many rows with Scotland Yard ....Monro in particular who saw the way he worked with this circle of agents as illegal-some of these people had apparently been drawn from pubs and even its sometimes said brothels-----[could Miss Worth have been one such lady I wonder?]
Must go but good to chat Paul,
Norma

[Simon Wood]

Hi Norma,

I find it intriguing that Edward Jenkinson was in Vienna at the time Jonas Elp was stringing along the UK Austrian Ambassador and Foreign Office with an unlikely Jack the Ripper yarn to the tune of £160.

What was it PT Barnum once said?

Regards,

Simon

[PaulB]

Hi Paul,

As spelled, BMD lists a Buki birth in 1900 and a marriage in 1934. LDS gives us two deaths, in 1979 and 1986. The name Buki also appears in various unconnected newspaper reports.

Slim pickings indeed but, with a fair likelihood of the name Buki being correct, one wonders why the remarkably well-informed Mrs Elizabeth Phoenix, who on 11th November took the trouble to give the Leman Street cops "a statement . . . which it is thought will satisfactorily establish the identity of the murdered woman", wasn't summoned next day to the Kelly inquest as a witness.

The only witnesses to appear were those who had first been interviewed on 9th November.

Regards,

Simon

There are quite a lot of Bukis listed on Ancestry, although I haven't checked to see if they are all members of a single family. Hardly anybody was summoned to the inquest, and hardly any of the peripheral people like Mrs Phoenix, and her testimony was perhaps unverified and of questionable admissibility. 'Mrs Carthy' was the one who should have appeared, though, if they'd wanted the testimony about Kelly's past in the East End. I don't really see anything mysterious in their non-appearance, especially as the whole inquest was a tad odd!

[Simon Wood]

Hi Paul,

"A tad odd" should be writ large in the understatement Hall of Fame.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

There are quite a lot of Bukis listed on Ancestry, although I haven't checked to see if they are all members of a single family. Hardly anybody was summoned to the inquest, and hardly any of the peripheral people like Mrs Phoenix, and her testimony was perhaps unverified and of questionable admissibility. 'Mrs Carthy' was the one who should have appeared, though, if they'd wanted the testimony about Kelly's past in the East End. I don't really see anything mysterious in their non-appearance, especially as the whole inquest was a tad odd!

Plus, wouldn't the inquest be more concerned with the events of Thursday night/Friday morning and less about Mary's past? That would have been more of a police concern maybe?

Re: Buki
There's also similar sounding names like Bucci Bucki, Buckie, Bucky, Bookey and many other variations that might be worth considering too.

...although neither of these things has anything to do with the Scots Guards.