Kellys in the Scots Guards

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
When attempting to put a face/figure to Mary Kelly, we should take into account numerous accounts ie, Maurice Lewis, Caroline Maxwell, and the illustrated police news sketch from people that ''knew the victim''.
It would appear that she was 5'4'' maximum, and stout, with a fair complexion, and distinctive red hair, and not the 5'7'' with waist length hair as portrayed by an alleged ex landlady, the latter most certainly had the wrong person]
It would appear that she was quite attractive, the young Dew, and McCarthy's 14 year old son were of that opinion, and we should not forget she was only in her mid twenties.
As for her brother in the army, it would appear that this indeed was the case, and the police knew where to forward any personal effects, via Mrs McCarthy, so the question remains why can't the recipient be traced?
The wrong name.. possibly, but we clearly have the name Henry, and the surname must have been known, for him to have been found.
I appreciate this is taking the view that Ms Kendall Lane is accurate in her knowledge of this case , handed down directly from descendants that were involved .
She clearly has stated in her small contribution to Casebook, that her great-grandmother[ McCarthy's wife] parcelled up personal belongings of Mary Kelly, and forwarded them on to her army brother, so obviously had a name and address, it is also claimed that a passport was seen[ belonging to the victim] therefore leaving no doubt to the identity that was resident in that room.
So is it not possible that the identity of the brother became extinct from army records, from a compassionate request?
Regards Richard.

[Garry Wroe]

Is Mrs Phoenix' description also the sole source of Mary having extremely long distinctive hair? I can't recall if there were others.

Very interesting post, Debra. I only wish that I had the time to address the issues raised in more depth. As for the descriptions of Kelly, Mrs Prater said that she was tall, slender, blue-eyed, lily white, with beautiful long hair. Tellingly, the Phoenix description of Kelly had her as 'stout', a morphology that is not borne out by the Miller's Court crime scene photograph.

[PaulB]

Hi all.
I wonder why there was no official police description given of Mary? Perhaps they weren't that interested in tracing her family after all.
Mrs. Phoenix said the woman who stayed with her brother in law was 5 ft 7 in., had long hair down to her waist, blue eyes and two false front teeth that protruded over her lip. If this were the case why did Barnett have to identify Mary by her ears and eyes? Why not her false protruding teeth?
It seems like it's not the same woman in this case?
Is Mrs Phoenix' description also the sole source of Mary having extremely long distinctive hair? I can't recall if there were others.

Maurice Lewis, who seems to have known what Mary looked like as he gave a statement that he saw her drinking with Dan [Barnett] and Julia on the Thursday night which seems to have been corroborated by Joseph Barnett himself, says she was short, stout and had dark hair.

Hi Debs,
The reference to the teeth is only mentioned in one newspaper though, isn't it? Otherwise, what descriptions do we possess of Mary Kelly?

[PaulB]

Very interesting post, Debra. I only wish that I had the time to address the issues raised in more depth. As for the descriptions of Kelly, Mrs Prater said that she was tall, slender, blue-eyed, lily white, with beautiful long hair. Tellingly, the Phoenix description of Kelly had her as 'stout', a morphology that is not borne out by the Miller's Court crime scene photograph.

So, Mary Kelly was Mary something else, was tall and slender and short and stout and had chameleon hair which changed colour to suite - sounds about par for the course as far as witness descriptions are concerned

[lynn cates]

suggestive

Hello Mr. Begg.

"Although I have to say that the police may have been following a different line of inquiry as there are peculiarities such as the offer of a reward, the truncated inquest, and so on which collectively might be suggestive, though of what remains to be seen."

Could they possibly suggest her status as a police informer, or one of Sir Ed Jenkinson's offbeat troupe? If she were, and subsequently recognised by someone at the Met, that would explain:

1. The reward.

2. The truncated inquest.

3. The RIC presence.

4. Her fear before the event.

5. Why she needed an elaborate cover story.

6. Why she settled in Whitechapel after West London (Soho).

7. Why Special Branch began listing JTR suspects in their ledger.

8. Why a man answering the description of Red Jim McDermott came to see her. (Blotchy)

9. Why a man answering the description of General Francis Millen came to see her. (A-Man)

As you say, suggestive.

Cheers.
LC

[PaulB]

Hello Mr. Begg.

"Although I have to say that the police may have been following a different line of inquiry as there are peculiarities such as the offer of a reward, the truncated inquest, and so on which collectively might be suggestive, though of what remains to be seen."

Could they possibly suggest her status as a police informer, or one of Sir Ed Jenkinson's offbeat troupe? If she were, and subsequently recognised by someone at the Met, that would explain:

1. The reward.

2. The truncated inquest.

3. The RIC presence.

4. Her fear before the event.

5. Why she needed an elaborate cover story.

6. Why she settled in Whitechapel after West London (Soho).

7. Why Special Branch began listing JTR suspects in their ledger.

8. Why a man answering the description of Red Jim McDermott came to see her. (Blotchy)

9. Why a man answering the description of General Francis Millen came to see her. (A-Man)

As you say, suggestive.

Cheers.
LC

Indeed.

Once upon a time, in a curry house far, far away, a small group which included Simon Wood, idled the time by working out a scenario which connected Mary Kelly with the Fenians. A novel along those lines came a lot later. Funny how idle moments can come circle...

[lynn cates]

groups

Hello Mr. Begg. Well, actually the Fenians had their glory years in the 1860's. I prefer to think in terms of "The Irish National Invincibles"--a breakaway group from the "Irish Republican Brotherhood." Another interesting group is "The Triangle"--a breakaway group from the "Clan-na-Gael." The latter are the ones who did Dr. Cronin with an ice axe.

Besides Simon, Norma Buddle is the authority on this subject.

By the way, would you happen to know the true identity of Sir Ed's "Miss Worth"?

Cheers.
LC

[PaulB]

Paul

I have to keep replying to your posts and some may think its a personal but I can assure you its not.

Many posters on here have been trying to prove or disprove everything connected to Kelly and they have come up with virtualy nothing to show that Kelly was her real name and that what she told Barnett was the truth or even near the truth. Now to me and many others that must tell us something.

Yet again though you keep saying that she could have been telling the truth. You have done the same with many other issues and suspects discussed on here over the past few months.

You seem to readily accept what was said written etc way back in 1888 and in the ensuing years was the truth. Can you not accept that what was written,spoken or suggested then may not have been the truth because since then many people have been able to negate much of this. Yet you seem to not want to accept changes to the now old outdated theories.

I thought I had stated very clearly that I am advocating caution before dismissing Kelly's story as a lie by Barnett or by Kelly herself.

[The Good Michael]

Very interesting post, Debra. I only wish that I had the time to address the issues raised in more depth. As for the descriptions of Kelly, Mrs Prater said that she was tall, slender, blue-eyed, lily white, with beautiful long hair. Tellingly, the Phoenix description of Kelly had her as 'stout', a morphology that is not borne out by the Miller's Court crime scene photograph.

Huh? There's no way of telling, and there's a lot of meat on that table.

Mike

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,
The reference to the teeth is only mentioned in one newspaper though, isn't it? Otherwise, what descriptions do we possess of Mary Kelly?

Hi Paul.
I'm not sure but I noted that the papers that didn't mention false teeth in the description were all worded exactly the same, probably from the same source? But, there appear to be two differently worded reports that mention false teeth? One says "two false teeth in her upper jaw" but doesn't mention the protrusion, and then I'm sure there's a version that says something like 'two false front teeth that protruded over her lip.' it's an odd thing for a journalist (or two) to invent?
I just thought that if it was what was said, it's odd that Barnett didn't identify Mary by something that must have been quite distinctive that couldn't have been damaged by the knife.

[Debra A]

Very interesting post, Debra. I only wish that I had the time to address the issues raised in more depth. As for the descriptions of Kelly, Mrs Prater said that she was tall, slender, blue-eyed, lily white, with beautiful long hair. Tellingly, the Phoenix description of Kelly had her as 'stout', a morphology that is not borne out by the Miller's Court crime scene photograph.

Thanks, Garry. I wasn't aware that Prater had given a description of Mary, too.

[PaulB]

Hello Mr. Begg. Well, actually the Fenians had their glory years in the 1860's. I prefer to think in terms of "The Irish National Invincibles"--a breakaway group from the "Irish Republican Brotherhood." Another interesting group is "The Triangle"--a breakaway group from the "Clan-na-Gael." The latter are the ones who did Dr. Cronin with an ice axe.

Besides Simon, Norma Buddle is the authority on this subject.

By the way, would you happen to know the true identity of Sir Ed's "Miss Worth"?

Cheers.
LC

Fenian was an still is (albeit rarely) used as a blanket description for any pro-Irish 'freedom fighter'. The Triangle was petty inept, the murder of Dr Cronin being quickly and easily discovered (assuming they were the murderers and that the still waters aren't running even deeper, as many believe), but Mr Beggs was acquitted, I am relieved to say. I exchanged a few brief pleaentries with Norma the other night and she showed me her book on Hanratty, which I must get and have her sign, if she will. I regret, no, I don't know the identity of Sir Ed's "Miss Worth", but perhaps my brain is dying right now; enlighten me about her briefly.

[PaulB]

Hi Paul.
I'm not sure but I noted that the papers that didn't mention false teeth in the description were all worded exactly the same, probably from the same source? But, there appear to be two differently worded reports that mention false teeth? One says "two false teeth in her upper jaw" but doesn't mention the protrusion, and then I'm sure there's a version that says something like 'two false front teeth that protruded over her lip.' it's an odd thing for a journalist (or two) to invent?
I just thought that if it was what was said, it's odd that Barnett didn't identify Mary by something that must have been quite distinctive that couldn't have been damaged by the knife.

Yes, I noted and can confirm that similarity. And the newspaper said, "She had two false teeth which projected very much from the lips." Why Barnett couldn't identify Kelly from the protruding teeth is a good point, though maybe her mouth was closed and they didn't show or had come out?

[lynn cates]

What is it worth?

Hello Mr. Begg. "Miss Worth" was one of Sir Ed's agents. She worked out of Soho. When her partner, Llewelyn Winter, was about to be pinched, he fled to France. Perhaps she fled with him.

Wish I knew who she REALLY was.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Yes, I noted and can confirm that similarity. And the newspaper said, "She had two false teeth which projected very much from the lips." Why Barnett couldn't identify Kelly from the protruding teeth is a good point, though maybe her mouth was closed and they didn't show or had come out?

It's a pity the main post mortem records didn't survive as that would probably answer the question.