The ALLEGED photograph of the Kelly family

[Robert]

Thanks Debs. Yes a tragedy how much seems to have disappeared, but also a slight ray of hope : if only a fraction of the files were to turn up somewhere....

It kind of puts into perspective the theories about the cursory investigation of Mr B, doesn't it. All done and dusted in just one day!

[Cogidubnus]

Checking those parcel rates, the prevalent rate in 1888 (set in 1886) for internal parcels indicate that a parcel of 5lb weight, for example, would cost 9d to post, a 7lb packet 1/-...add the cost of packaging, and it's costing you!

Dave

[lynn cates]

investigation

Hello Debs.

"Reading through the Buswell investigation makes me wonder how much really is missing from the Whitechapel murder files.

The Met. police in the Buswell case covered every single angle of investigation and noted every bit of it. All previous lovers/acquaintances/friends were interviewed and detailed statements taken. All Harriett's personal letters and photographs were kept in the police file and thoroughly investigated, police went through her personal photo album and traced everyone who's picture appeared in it through the photographic details on the back and going to that photographer for a name.

They went to the town Harriet was born and brought up in and traced all family members (however distantly related) and old childhood friends. Even though she had siblings who were known to police, the photographs and letters remain in the police file, the siblings were allowed to claim her clothing and jewelry and this had to be done formally and the request is also in the file.

I can't begin to describe the scale and thoroughness of the investigation conducted to catch Harriett's killer . . ."

Precisely!

Cheers.
LC

[jason_c]

Hi Robert, you're right. The press had no family traced, then the family were traced and the funeral postponed until they arrived (didn't say from where). Then there's the reports that say inquiries with Limerick Police had been fruitless and the Limerick police denying that Scotland yard had even been in touch!

A while back, Rob Clack made me copies of the huge police files on the unsolved murder of Harriett Buswell (as well as Emma Jackson's which was a similar type of murder). Reading through the Buswell investigation makes me wonder how much really is missing from the Whitechapel murder files.

The Met. police in the Buswell case covered every single angle of investigation and noted every bit of it. All previous lovers/acquaintances/friends were interviewed and detailed statements taken. All Harriett's personal letters and photographs were kept in the police file and thoroughly investigated, police went through her personal photo album and traced everyone who's picture appeared in it through the photographic details on the back and going to that photographer for a name.

They went to the town Harriet was born and brought up in and traced all family members (however distantly related) and old childhood friends. Even though she had siblings who were known to police, the photographs and letters remain in the police file, the siblings were allowed to claim her clothing and jewelry and this had to be done formally and the request is also in the file.

I can't begin to describe the scale and thoroughness of the investigation conducted to catch Harriett's killer, which they never did, even armed with all this information.
What I'm waffling on about I suppose, is that I can't imagine the Met's procedures would have changed all that much in 15 years,certainly I can't imagine they became less thorough in their investigative techniques. I think that if there were letters from Mary's family, a photograph of Mary taken in , 85, a passport or anything personal to her then there would be something in the police file. Maybe it's all just missing but most likely the family was never traced?

Thanks for this excellent post. Whilst its possible the police had some blind spots in the Ripper investigation and perhaps a lack of manpower, I dont believe they were incompetent or lacklustre.

[The Good Michael]

I don't think there'd be any mystery about Johnto not sticking to enlistment obligations. If he moved to America, his enlistment would be effectively over. Easy enough to throw the military yoke from one's shoulders.

Mike

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Jason,

It means that the Kellys listed on the 1891-92 page
of the Springfield IL City Directory that I posted can't
be the Kelly family that Chris' contact said emigrated
to the US shortly after her murder.

According to the bio Debs found, the Springfield Kellys
arrived in the US in the late 1840s and had no
children that lived so that discounts them too.

Hi Livia

As I posted over at JtR Forums in reply to Deb Arif, I agree that the Springfield, Illinois, Kelly family who arrived in the United States in 1849 doesn't seem to be the same Kelly family since it doesn't agree with the information Chris Scott received that the Kelly family in the photograph arrived in this country after MJK's murder.

As I mentioned to her, this is further proof that the names Bridget and Mary, let alone Kelly, repeat and repeat in Irish families. Although it seems unlikely at this point, there's a vague possibility that the Mary of Miller's Court was a cousin of these people or somehow linked to them, and that the information got mangled through the years, as Jenni Shelden wrote at JtR Forums. Just a thought.

Best regards

Chris

[Debra A]

It kind of puts into perspective the theories about the cursory investigation of Mr B, doesn't it. All done and dusted in just one day!

Definitely, Robert! And perhaps others who claimed to know MJK too?
There are also some other interesting things in the files too,one of which might please Richard: Receipts for witness expenses paid that show a witness was generously paid for his 'time' rather than loss of earnings or related to his earnings.

Jason, I totally agree!

[curious]

Definitely, Robert! And perhaps others who claimed to know MJK too?
There are also some other interesting things in the files too,one of which might please Richard: Receipts for witness expenses paid that show a witness was generously paid for his 'time' rather than loss of earnings or related to his earnings.

Jason, I totally agree!

This is wonderful information to have when considering possible JtR suspects.

Thanks so much.

[KatBradshaw]

Ok, so if the Kelly's in the picture are not the Kelly's who moved to America in 1849, how do people feel about them being a possibility for our Kelly's?

I have to say that the likelyhood for me is that they are not our Kelly's. I only have my gut on this. I think their picture looks pre-1890s to me and so given Mary's age and the scant details we have of our Mary's brother I don't think he is in this picture.

[curious4]

Hi Livia

As I posted over at JtR Forums in reply to Deb Arif, I agree that the Springfield, Illinois, Kelly family who arrived in the United States in 1849 doesn't seem to be the same Kelly family since it doesn't agree with the information Chris Scott received that the Kelly family in the photograph arrived in this country after MJK's murder.

As I mentioned to her, this is further proof that the names Bridget and Mary, let alone Kelly, repeat and repeat in Irish families. Although it seems unlikely at this point, there's a vague possibility that the Mary of Miller's Court was a cousin of these people or somehow linked to them, and that the information got mangled through the years, as Jenni Shelden wrote at JtR Forums. Just a thought.

Best regards

Chris

Actually I said that, or words to that effect a few pages back (facts being twisted down the generations) .

C4

[richardnunweek]

Hi Debra,
Witness's paid generously for their time, rather then related to earnings, or loss of earnings... well I declare.
Wrong thread, but yours truly is having a s******..
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
What surely not offensive, how about yours truly is developing a smirk on his face.
Richard.

[Ben]

how about yours truly is developing a smirk on his face

...and possibly for no good reason, Richard.

If a witness was paid for his "time", it was obviously "time" that would otherwise have been spent either working or in pursuit of work. Unless the witnesses in question were ladies and gentleman of leisure, I think you'll find that payment for "time" was, and is, inextricably linked to the issue of the witness' work patterns. If not, the police really were incompetent, and I can't accept that. A distinction should also be paid between "generous" payments, and absurdly over-the-top, Faircloughian payments.

But as you note, we're on the "wrong thread" for that particular discussion, and it would be a terrible shame to derail such an interesting exchange on the photograph.

Regards,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ben.
Over to the thread which name escapes me,
Regards Richard.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Great post.

"Reading through the Buswell investigation makes me wonder how much really is missing from the Whitechapel murder files . . . I can't begin to describe the scale and thoroughness of the investigation conducted to catch Harriett's killer . . ."

You've put your finger on the problem.

Given the level of thoroughness and professionalism employed in the Buswell case, the Ripper investigation appears shoddy and chaotic, with the Metropolitan Police apparently falling prey to all manner of spurious leads from local butchers, organ-scouting doctors and assorted nutbags to opportunist informants from as far afield as Vienna, whilst at the same time diverting valuable detectival resources to amateur theorists such as Larkins.

In 1888 Scotland Yard was HMG's security apparatus. It was the CID, 'FBI' and Secret Service all rolled into one. Warren the martinet may have been gullible, but Monro and Anderson certainly weren't stupid—far, far from it—and to believe that this pathetic state of affairs was brought about by an effete barrister or a masturbating Polish Jew is completely ludicrous and an insult to our intelligence.

For as yet unknown reasons, somebody was capitalizing on the politics of confusion.

Our problem is that we have become far too enamoured by the concept of JtR to remain objective in our investigation into the mystery of the Whitechapel murders, to the extent that there are whole areas of research which remain decidedly off-limits.

Regards,

Simon