The ALLEGED photograph of the Kelly family

[curious4]

Not a furniture expert, but don t those chairs bear a resemblance to Shaker chairs? If that is the case, it points to america. I must say that Johnto certainly sits very upright compared to the others (military bearing?).

Regards,
C4

[Debra A]

Hi all,
The subject of young army pensioners has come up before with Bowyer research. According to the Find My Past site-Soldiers were eligible for a pension after 12 years of service, so relatively young men could be pensioned out.

The Scots Guards were in Dublin at the time of MJKs murder, I've seen it in the papers and in the pension records of a member of the 2nd Batallion Scots Guards which documents their whereabouts. If Henry didn't come forward about MJK for fear of ruining his army career then it does seem odd that he didn't spend many years afterwards in the army, as far as I recall Chris was told this picture was taken in the US.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Debra,
We can only go from an 'oral' history account from McCarthy's great grand-daughter, which suggests that initially her brother Henry was contacted via the Scots guards, which would imply that either there was a letter amongst her belongings , or Barnett informed the police of the details, [ he was aware of the battalion].
It appears that although accepting the belongings, he was somewhat shy of it becoming known that he was related to the victim, and it is likely that the shame was to much to bear for not only him , but for the entire family,
however it would be informative if their were any remaining records of one Henry, John , Joseph Kelly's discharge records ,but I fear not.
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

Hi Richard, the pension records for the Scots Guards have survived though and there is no Henry Kelly among them. So, maybe he didn't make it to pension-but there isn't a Henry Kelly on the Muster roles for 1888 either, which is more telling perhaps? Did Fiona also say Mary's brother's name was definitely Henry?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Debra,
It has always been assumed that the brother in the army was Henry..alias Johnto, so it would be surprising , IF the picture is authentic [and the information to boot also] that he could enlist in the army under a false name, so the mystery is why is he not listed, was he struck off , and if so why?,its like the rest of the family ..at least till now[ hopefully] very illusive.
They certainly went to a great deal of trouble to shun any publicity.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Slightly off topic, but a bearing on this discussion.
There are a few posts on JTR Forums, about the possible height of Kelly's eldest brother Henry[ reflecting on the family photograph], and it released another speculative thought.
We assume that no one of the Kelly family attended the funeral of Mary, but we have no identity, of the other man besides Barnett who attended, who is shown in the graveside sketch, made on the day.
We know eight mourners attended, six women, and two men, on of the men was Joe Barnett, who was the other?
A representative of McCarthy who?
If one looks at the sketch , one can clearly see the six women present , and two men, the one to the fore apparently bending somewhat, to lay what looks like a floral tribute.
When I saw this sketch many years ago, my first impression was that the man to the front was Father Columban[ not certain of the spelling], who was described as a giant of a man, however this certainly not the case, not dressed correctly.
But the figure to the fore, certainly looks to be of a tall statue, [ unless my eyes are playing tricks] I even had the notion that the 6'7'' Fleming may have attended, until now..
If one looks at it in perspective, it does appear that the figure laying the tribute, it taking pride of place over Barnett, which a close relation would.
Questions ..Was Henry Kelly a tall man, and did he attend the funeral , and do we have him on a sketch, which can be found on this site, did a member of the family attend after all.?
Food for thought,, my brain is working overtime...
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

Hi Richard

If a family member attended, then he wasn't mentioned in the Press, and nor was any floral tribute he might have left.

[Phil Carter]

Hi Richard

If a family member attended, then he wasn't mentioned in the Press, and nor was any floral tribute he might have left.

Hello Robert,

I think I am correct in saying that somewhere the police themselves say that no family had been found despite strenuous efforts?

Best wishes

Phil

[Robert]

I can't say for sure, Phil. I think the police said they hadn't found anyone. I think there was a Press report that the family were coming, and then another report that they weren't! Debs would know.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys.
I think we can assume that the entire Kelly family has been rather elusive to say the least, as for the strenuous efforts..made by the police, they obviously succeeded in tracing brother Henry?, as Mrs McCarthy clearly knew who she parcelled up poor Mary's belongings for, and where they were being sent.
I am just making a personal observation, based on my interpretation of height, and it is not that inconceivable, despite lack of press reports, aided by respect from the police, that a family member such as Henry may have been have been given compassionate leave to attend, just because he was concerned about his career prospects ,does not necessarily imply heartlessness.
Regards Richard.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Richard,

I can of course accept the thoughts of innocent reason for absence- no sign of heartlessness- but I am concerned with the 'why now' aspect in all of this, I admit.

Kindly

Phil

[greg]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but could the reason that the Kelly family didn't attend the funeral or could not be contacted by the police was that they were already in America?

Just a thought.

Greg

[lynn cates]

no mention

Hello Greg. If so, one wonders why that fact escaped the police and newspapers.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

I can't say for sure, Phil. I think the police said they hadn't found anyone. I think there was a Press report that the family were coming, and then another report that they weren't! Debs would know.

Hi Robert, you're right. The press had no family traced, then the family were traced and the funeral postponed until they arrived (didn't say from where). Then there's the reports that say inquiries with Limerick Police had been fruitless and the Limerick police denying that Scotland yard had even been in touch!

A while back, Rob Clack made me copies of the huge police files on the unsolved murder of Harriett Buswell (as well as Emma Jackson's which was a similar type of murder). Reading through the Buswell investigation makes me wonder how much really is missing from the Whitechapel murder files.

The Met. police in the Buswell case covered every single angle of investigation and noted every bit of it. All previous lovers/acquaintances/friends were interviewed and detailed statements taken. All Harriett's personal letters and photographs were kept in the police file and thoroughly investigated, police went through her personal photo album and traced everyone who's picture appeared in it through the photographic details on the back and going to that photographer for a name.

They went to the town Harriet was born and brought up in and traced all family members (however distantly related) and old childhood friends. Even though she had siblings who were known to police, the photographs and letters remain in the police file, the siblings were allowed to claim her clothing and jewelry and this had to be done formally and the request is also in the file.

I can't begin to describe the scale and thoroughness of the investigation conducted to catch Harriett's killer, which they never did, even armed with all this information.
What I'm waffling on about I suppose, is that I can't imagine the Met's procedures would have changed all that much in 15 years,certainly I can't imagine they became less thorough in their investigative techniques. I think that if there were letters from Mary's family, a photograph of Mary taken in , 85, a passport or anything personal to her then there would be something in the police file. Maybe it's all just missing but most likely the family was never traced?

[Cogidubnus]

Binned

I confess to being bothered about the story of the McCarthy family tracing the brother and posting her belongings off to him. Although MJK mayn't have owned much, I just can't see them taking the trouble...actually, the less she owned, possibly the less they'd be inclined to go to the expense.

After all inland Letter post/newspaper post were (deliberately) kept cheap (penny and ha'penny respectively). I seem to recall Parcel post wasn't though (I'd need to check)...

I suspect they simply ditched whatever there was and told a cosy tale years after...no evidence of course...just a gut feeling...after all if the McCarthy's traced the brother so easily, so would the Met...they weren't that daft...

Dave