The ALLEGED photograph of the Kelly family

[Cogidubnus]

Not so old....

See, this is MY kind of census taker. Think I will chat him up for my next enumeration.

You wish Lynn!

But at least you were always born in the same place...this one's got a split personality to match Psycho!

Dave

[Debra A]

50 in the 1881 census, 50 in the 1891 census, (ok we know census records get confusing this way) but born 1832 or 1836. Are we really sure these are the same people Livia?

All the best

Baffled of Bognor

Ancestry's submitted family trees are not always reliable things, as Liv and I can testify to from past experience!

Given that Mary Madden appears not to have aged in 10 years, the 1881 and 1891 entries can be compared in other ways. The two sons Michael and Timothy have the same year of birth in both entries and were born in the same place. The streets they are living on in 1881 and 1891 are right next door to each other.

[Cogidubnus]

Nagging doubts

Hi Debs

Yeah I'd go with that (In all honesty I'd go with most things you'd tell me) but it's the differing places of birth that bug me...ok Cork and Limerick adjoin but still I wonder...

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

Hi Debs

Yeah I'd go with that (In all honesty I'd go with most things you'd tell me) but it's the differing places of birth that bug me...ok Cork and Limerick adjoin but still I wonder...

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave, that's what my first line's about. Limerick as a place of birth is Ancestry family tree submitted..

Most things? ...There were no grapes!

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Debs

I said MOST things...as a tribute both to your research and honesty!

Love it

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Over there

that's what my first line's about. Limerick as a place of birth is Ancestry family tree submitted..

Our membership's lapsed Debs so I can't check...but does the tree indicate North American descendants?

Dave

[Livia]

Hi Debs, Cog

There's two owner submitted trees for the Madden/Donovan
family, the one I posted is the better researched of the two
(the other only includes Michael and Timothy). The tree I
posted here seems to be a work in progress, the owner's last
login was today. It contains many exact death and marriage
dates, the last death date in 2003 in Timothy's line. If I had
to guess I'd say that the owner is descended from Timothy
Madden, as that line ends in several "private" entries.

Three of the Maddens married into the Gleeson family (Johanna,
Catherine and Michael), Timothy married a Downs.

The owner has Denis Donovan, Mary's father, listed as born in
Shandrum Cork on 16 Jul 1797. Shandrum is only about 17 miles
from Manister.

It doesn't appear as though any of them emigrated. Most, if
not all, ended up in England.

But for the lack of sources, I'd say this tree seems accurate
in that there's no glaring errors. It looks like a fair amount of
research was done to compile it. It also looks like the owner
has gone as far as she can with her father's line and is now
working on her mother's.

Liv

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Liv

So unlikely to be connected to the photograph we've been shown...

Bless you for trying!

Thanks

Dave

[Harry the Hawker]

2 Kellys

Hi Chris,

If it would not involve too much hassle on your part,
would it be possible to cut the portion of the family
picture that contains the fiddler and post it next to
the picture of James Kelly, Broadmoor escapee and fiddle
player, on this thread?

And if it's not asking too much, also the picture of James
Kelly as an old man next to the elder Mr John Kelly?

Might make for an interesting comparison.

Both pictures of James Kelly are in Tully's book,
Prisoner 1167. I can scan them and send them
to you if that would help.

Thanks,

Liv

I've had a bash Livia, my photoshop skills are not great I'm afraid. Also, I could only find the young James Kelly photo.

Cheers,
Harry

[Livia]

Good job, your photoshop skills far exceed mine.

Thanks very much Harry.

[Debra A]

The owner has Denis Donovan, Mary's father, listed as born in
Shandrum Cork on 16 Jul 1797. Shandrum is only about 17 miles
from Manister.

Thanks, Liv. That probably explains why Mary wrote Cork as her place of birth in 1901 then. But I agree with Dave, no one seems to have emigrated so there doesn't look like there's any connection other than they had a lodger named John Kelly in April 1881.

Was it the photo of James Kelly with his carer that you want posting?

[Debra A]

Was it the photo of James Kelly with his carer that you want posting?

Ignore this. I just realised that's not really him. It's another James Kelly and his wife who've been 'nicked' by a website about James kelly. I thought there was a resemblance too

[Livia]

Hi Debs,

I only know of two, the one Harry posted above
and the one of JK as an old man.

There's another?

If you think it's worth it, then yes, please post it (if you
have it).

While there is a slight facial resemblance (mostly below
the eyes), the coloring of the fiddler and JK seems at odds.
JK looks very dark, while the fiddler seems very fair. The
style of the facial hair is similar though. I can't see any
similarities of the elderly James Kelly to John Joseph Kelly
of the family photo.

I've looked into James Kelly's history and as you'd expect
it's not straightforward either. On the 1861 census, there's:

Teresa Kelly Head born c. 1809 married born in Chatham Brompton
Teresa Jenkins Dau born c. 1841 married born in Isle of Man
Sarah Kelly born Dau c. 1844 unmarried born in Altrincham
Amelia Wilson Niece born c. 1838 unmarried born in Ireland
James Jenkins Grandson born c. 1860 born in Preston

So if James Jenkins was in fact James Kelly, add another
list to the names he was known by, Jim Kelly, Jim Allan,
John Miller and James Jenkins.

I couldn't find a marriage record for Teresa Jenkins,
but her baptismal record gives her parents as Teresa
and John Kelly, b. June 10, 1839, Godparents Ann
and Thomas Kelly. No baptismal record for Sarah,
but there was another daughter named Bridget,
born April 1st, 1843, parents John and Teresa,
Godmother Ann Kelly.

I also looked at the records for Mary Molter, JK's
aunt. Provided she wasn't previously married, her
maiden name was Sherry, so it's possible that Teresa
Kelly's maiden name was also Sherry.

So I'd have to agree with Tully, "no known relation
to Mary Jane Kelly".

Liv

[Livia]

Ignore this. I just realised that's not really him. It's another James Kelly and his wife who've been 'nicked' by a website about James kelly. I thought there was a resemblance too

Yeah, I saw that one last night. Not even close!

[Cogidubnus]

Dedicated follower...

I was having another think about the photo this afternoon.

My original thought was that it looked a bit on the early side...I was guessing by the men's clothing...However, looking at the younger Bridget, she's wearing the sort of dress I think a governess might have worn, and it appears to have leg of mutton sleeves...

So I've done some internet searching and I believe (I may be wrong - ladies fashion isn't my thing!) that these came in in the mid 90s, gradually grew more pronounced until 1905, then disappeared...I feel a young lady in a respectable position would likely dress more fashionably than the menfolk, for whom practicality is probably a greater consideration

Which would place the picture 1895 to 1905? Anyone more expert out there?

Best wishes

Dave