The ALLEGED photograph of the Kelly family

[Livia]

Now that, David, really is interesting...

Dave

But according to the family, there were only two daughters,
Mary and Bridget and the Madden/Kelly census page of 1881
shows a third daughter, Susannah age 13. Also, there's only
one son, James aged 15 and there should be at least three
more. Also, it's heavily over-written, but it looks like Mr Kelly
is a widower.

[The Good Michael]

Northpoint, Pennsylvania, near Bethlehem, PA, famous for it's iron works.

Mike

[Cogidubnus]

But according to the family, there were only two daughters,
Mary and Bridget and the Madden/Kelly census page of 1881
shows a third daughter, Susannah age 13. Also, there's only
one son, James aged 15 and there should be at least three
more.

Only one son living at home at the time of the census...

We only know, I think, that there was at least the one sister - it is also possible that perhaps Susannah died twixt the census and the Barnett period...or prior to the photo if we dare to link the two!

Dave

[Debra A]

Hi Chris,

If it would not involve too much hassle on your part,
would it be possible to cut the portion of the family
picture that contains the fiddler and post it next to
the picture of James Kelly, Broadmoor escapee and fiddle
player, on this thread?

And if it's not asking too much, also the picture of James
Kelly as an old man next to the elder Mr John Kelly?

Might make for an interesting comparison.

Both pictures of James Kelly are in Tully's book,
Prisoner 1167. I can scan them and send them
to you if that would help.

Thanks,

Liv

Very interesting, Liv. I can see what you mean, definitely.

[Cogidubnus]

If I were searching...

Northpoint, Pennsylvania, near Bethlehem, PA, famous for it's iron works.

Yes Good Michael, I think that's where I would look first

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Also, it's heavily over-written, but it looks like Mr Kelly
is a widower.

Could well be, if Kelly's been married before and they're shacked up as man and wife...

Dave

[Livia]

Only one son living at home at the time of the census...

We only know, I think, that there was at least the one sister - it is also possible that perhaps Susannah died twixt the census and the Barnett period...or prior to the photo if we dare to link the two!

Dave

Easier to discuss if you can actually see the page....

[Debra A]

Even if the lady who provided the photograph wasn't certain about Mrs. Kelly's maiden name, hence the discussion about Madden, she seemed pretty certain her first name was Bridget and not Mary?

[Livia]

Hi Debs,

It could be that Mary Madden was some relation to Bridget
Kelly, maybe a sister in law?

I believe Mary Madden died in October of 1881, there is
a death listed for Trevthin, Monmouthshire.

Liv

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Livia

Thanks for posting the census page...

Looks like two sons of hers, plus one of his still at home...plus his daughter...could well be an exiled Irish widow and exiled Irish widower set up together, with some kids living away from home - doesn't even preclude a later reunification of the family for emmigration purposes...

I can't make out the place of birth of some of the children...looks like New something...

If this Mary Madden is the one who died in 1881, Bridget could well be a sister, a sister in law or such that he subsequently set up with?

Just thoughts...

Dave

[Debra A]

Hi Liv, Dave
I think she was still alive in 1891, she just hadn't aged any!

MADDEN, Mary Head Married F 50 1841 Charwoman
Ireland
MADDEN, Michael Son Single M 24 1867 Labourer Iron Works
Abersychan
Monmouthshire
MADDEN, Thimothy Son Single M 21 1870 Labourer Iron Works
Abersychan
Monmouthshire

Address:
9, Gibson Lane, Trevethin With Pontypool, Pontypool

[Livia]

Hi Debs, Cog

According to a family tree on Ancestry, Patrick Madden
(b. Ireland, son of Timothy) married Mary Donovan
(born 17 Feb 1832 in Manister, Limerick) in December
of 1852. They had the following children:

Mary Madden 1855 –

James Madden 1857 – 1878

Johanna Madden 1860 –

Catherine Elizabeth Madden 1863 –

Michael Madden 1867 – 1959

Timothy Madden 1870 – 1947


Patrick died in 1881, Mary in 1903.

So it's Johanna, not Susannah as I posted earlier.

There are no Kellys or a Bridget Madden listed in the
family.

Why John Kelly is recorded in the middle of this family,
I don't know. Usually lodgers are at the bottom.

Liv

[Debra A]

According to a family tree on Ancestry, Patrick Madden
(b. Ireland, son of Timothy) married Mary Donovan
(born 17 Feb 1832 in Manister, Limerick) in December
of 1852.

Hi Liv, thanks. There's something a bit odd here then. In the 1901 Welsh census Mary Madden is shown as born in Cork c 1836.
She's living alone at Nicholas Street Pontypool and is a widow, this address fits in with the army records of her son Timothy, where's she's named as next of kin. Son Michael was also in the same regiment, 3rd battalion Welsh Borderers, but he bought his way out after 3 months. Both her sons joined up in 1892. Timothy is shown on the 1901census at Woolwich where he's in the Military Band.

[Cogidubnus]

50 in the 1881 census, 50 in the 1891 census, (ok we know census records get confusing this way) but born 1832 or 1836. Are we really sure these are the same people Livia?

All the best

Baffled of Bognor

[lynn cates]

census

Hello Dave.

"50 in the 1881 census, 50 in the 1891 census"

See, this is MY kind of census taker. Think I will chat him up for my next enumeration.

Cheers.
LC