Relatives

[Robert]

Hi Miss Marple

I'm here to be shot down in flames on women's fashion, but here goes :

Could the establishment in Paris where Mary worked have photographed the women as advertisements? Maybe they gave them broad-brimmed hats to wear? (I'm assuming that Paris is a few years ahead of London in fashion matters). Or perhaps the Paris dresses and broad-brimmed hats were the stuff that Mary went back to collect from Mrs Carthy? In which case she might possibly have had herself photographed in them before flogging them.

[miss marple]

Just looking at Chris's description again of the supposed Ameriican picture of Mary Kelly in a ' broad brimmed hat' I thought no that's not right. Broad brimmed hats for woman did not come in fashion till the 1890s and only got really big in the 1900s
The early part of Victoria's reign was the bonnet, which framed the face and suited ringlets. By 1860s with hair styles off the face hats got small, pillboxes perched on top of the head, as hairstyles got more elaborate and curled at the back and on top of the head in the 1870s and 80s small bonnets came back but were perched on top of the head with small turned up brims,often decorated with feathers and flowers and ribbons, they were an adjunct to the elaborate hairstyles'
The true broad brimmed picture hat was very popular in the 1900s. If Mary in the photo was wearing one of those, its unlikely the photo is from the1880s, also the clothes will date it.
Just a thought, as we can't see the photo there is no way of dating it. Bridget's sleeve looks like the 1890s

Miss Marple

C4 I ve also got Walter's Secret Diaries and read lots of socialogical stuff , but I think the Mayhew is apposite to Mary's supposed situation

[curious4]

relstives

Hello miss m.

Yes, I am familiar with Mayhew and Stead's Maiden Tribute, just thought you had another source

C4

[miss marple]

C4
I think everything she said is true apart from being married.
Of course many researchers have spread out the timescale. I have spent lots of time looking back as far as 1850. But quite honestly I dont think she was older than 25, there is no evidence to suggest she was, but plenty to suggest she was a young woman.The difference between 25 and 35 if you had been whoring and drinking for nearly twenty years is great,but her skin, her body would show age, even if she had had an ok life.
I am always intrigued by the one part of her in the photo that is still in tact, her arm, its a young woman's arm. I used to draw a lot of life models at art school etc and you learn to spot changes in the body.
I have read tons of stuff on Victorian social history, history of prostitution etc.
There is loads of good reading available.
Many girls were shipped off to France
Mayhew writing in the early 1860s talks about the girls decoyed to the French ports of Dieppe,Harvre and Ostend on the pretex of a good salary and light housework where they then were placed in bawdy houses, many were made to sign a a sort of contract. [ Like the traffic in girls today from Eastern Europe or Africa who think they are coming to work and end up in brothels.
This happened to a young girl Mayhew had spoken to. She begged a young English man [who frequented the house] to save her. who said she go to the British Consul and lay her case before him. She was watched all the time and had to lay low until they trusted her to go for a walk in town to solicit for custom. The ploy worked and she was granted a passport and money home,
I will quote the final paragraph in full because it is what happened to Mary and so many others.

''Arrived in England, she found her friends reluctant to believe the tale she told them, and found herself thrown on her own resources. Without a charactor and with a mind so very much disturbed, she found it difficult to do anything respectable, and at last had recourse to prostitution; -so difficult it is to come back to the right path once we have strayed from it.''

I think that sums it up for Mary Jane

Miss Marple

[curious4]

relatives

Hello Chris,

Actually now you mention it a sister selling material at the market or travelling round selling material does ring a bell.

Thanks!
C4

[Chris Scott]

Hi C4
Barnett's various accounts suggest that there were 6 or 7 brothers and one sister who worked in the markets selling material

[curious4]

Hello Chris,

Wasn't Mary said to have had six brothers and no sisters?

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Hello again Miss M.,

We all have our own theories, and I agree that Mary was a drinker, but I think people tend to tell the truth when drunk, especially to those closest to them.

The point I was trying to make is that we should consider looking further back for Mary's birthdate as she has been so hard to trace.

I would be interested to know where you got your facts about french brothels from.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Which makes me wonder if "spent some time in an infirmary" in Cardiff might actually be suggestive of time spent in a sanatorium recovering from TB.

Hello Bridewell,

That's the way I've always interpreted it anyway.

Cheers,
C4

[richardnunweek]

Hello Chris.
Thanks for explaining , it certainly puts a different light on it, I just felt the need to ask a question or two, as being around for so long has made me a suspicious oldie.
One cant help wondering why the owner should send it in the first place. if reluctant to share , its all very confusing, but good luck with any future correspondence in that sphere.
Regards Richard.

[Chris Scott]

Richard
I have no convincing evidence that either photo is what is claimed for it. Until such time as that is provided I would not contemplate endorsing or promoting these images.
All I can say is that these images were not sent recently but nearly two years ago and I have been in discussion with the sender for some time. It was with great reluctance on the part of the provider that it was agreed that even one face from the composite image could be shown. If the provider is "testing the waters" they have taken a very long winded and seemingly reluctant way of doing this. It took a lot of gentle persuasion on my part over a lengthy period to get the concession of posting this one fragmentary image.
Chris

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
I expected to log on this morning with a host of replies, referring to the picture [ alleged] of Kelly's younger sister , but apart from the Atherton comments, zero.
Here we have the [ alleged] sister of MJK, in black and white, [ even more important then Philip Hutchinson's yard discovery] but no endearing comments.
Why is that?
I say this with no disrespect to Chris, but it is abundantly clear to me ,that the sender of the photographs is just testing the water, and by letting a well respected researcher from the UK have them under lock and key, he, or she, knows that credibility is assured.
I hate to be so negative, and I really hope that the pictures are authentic, that would be a priceless find, and not just talking finance, but I am not holding my breath.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

Congrats, Jon!

I still can't get the 'John too' becoming 'Jonto' to work for me though, even though we may even be saying it in the same accent?
It must have been a written mistake in that case?

Hi Debs.
Oh yes, certainly it was a mistake. Wasn't it written by Abberline?
I should look, just got in from work, but if I recall, that line was taken from a statement, presumably written by Abberline, or his assistant.
Barnett say's "John too", and it was written "Johnto", not as a name but just that there must be little to no separation between the words.

I'd like to see the original for myself.

Anyway, cheers to youto, I mean "you too"


Regards, Jon S.

[curious4]

Just a suggestion, but could Johnto be a corruption of Ianto?
Any welshmen out there to back me up?
C4

[Bridewell]

John 2?

Congrats, Jon!

I still can't get the 'John too' becoming 'Jonto' to work for me though, even though we may even be saying it in the same accent?
It must have been a written mistake in that case? Barnett said 'John too' and it was written down as John to (which is where most people confuse words like 'to and too', then and than, of and off; in writing?) later someone making the two separate words into a one word name? Is that what you mean, a two step written mistake?

John 2 perhaps, if his father was also called John?