Relatives

[Chris Scott]

Mary Ann Kelly of Flint is not a Mary Jane Kelly, I remember years ago looking at all the Welsh Kellys in the census and not seeing a connection.
Everyone who talked about her mentions the Limerick connection, that she was born in Limerick.
So Chris ,what do have Kellys who came from Dublin to do with Mary Jane?

Miss Maple

Hi Miss M
This comes from quoting just a section:-)
This relates back to the census work earlier in the book. I was not arguing that the Flint Mary Kelly WAS the Millers Court victim but only that of all the women of the name Mary Kelly traced in the Welsh census records, she ticked the most boxes of agreement with the alleged facts about the Mary Kelly killed by the Whitechapel killer.
Chris

[miss marple]

Mary Ann Kelly of Flint is not a Mary Jane Kelly, I remember years ago looking at all the Welsh Kellys in the census and not seeing a connection.
Everyone who talked about her mentions the Limerick connection, that she was born in Limerick.
So Chris ,what do have Kellys who came from Dublin to do with Mary Jane?

Miss Maple

[lynn cates]

third time, charming

Hello Chris. Thanks for the excerpt. And this is PRECISELY why I have begun a third go at your book.

Cheers.
LC

[miss marple]

I think it is creative journalism. If a child existed where was it? None of the gossipy neighbours mentioned the child, or worrying about him after Mary's death. Where was this child when Joe moved out?
Vanished in a puff of smoke.
I presume Joe would have supported this child along with Mary,but never mentions supporting the two of them, and no where in the witness statement is a child mentioned,he complained about women staying in Mary's room, but not a child. Also Mary could not have entertained punters with a 9 to 11 year old boy present.

I believe we place too much reliance on press reports. The 19th century press went far beyond the News of the World in speculation and downright lies.
Having just read Judith Flanders book the Invention of Murder, I was shocked at the appalling lies and slanders published in newspapers in the 19th cfentury, with no sense of shame.There was no press council to regulate them, they made things up, anything to spice up a story.

If the first mention of this child was on the morning after the murder in the press, I rest my case.

Miss Marple


I

[Chris Scott]

From "Will the Real Mary Kelly...?"

2) Mary Jane Kelly had a son.
The story that Kelly had a young son living with her is both very early in origin and also becomes incredibly detailed very quickly. The outline of the story is that Kelly had a young son, whose age seems to vary from seven to eleven years old, living with her. On the night of the murder a man came to her room and she sent the child to stay with a neighbour. For once we have a quoted source for the earliest occurrence of this story. On the 9th of November, the day of the murder, an account appeared in The Star which specifically says that the details were told to the Star reporter by the inhabitants of the lodging houses in Dorset Street. This includes the first mention of Kelly's child:
"But from the startled inhabitants of the lodging-houses in Dorset-street a Star man got a few details. The victim is a woman who went by the name of Mary Jane and she lived in the room in which she has been murdered, with a man and her little son - about 10 or 11 years old."
The fuller version of the story of the boy appeared in the Times of the following day, 10th November:
"Another account gives the following details: Kelly had a little boy, aged about 6 or 7 years living with her, and latterly she had been in narrow straits, so much so that she is reported to have stated to a companion that she would make away with herself, as she could not bear to see her boy starving. There are conflicting statements as to when the woman was last seen alive, but that upon which most reliance appears to be placed is that of a young woman, an associate of the deceased, who states that at about half-past 10 o'clock on Thursday night she met the murdered woman at the corner of Dorset-street, who said to her that she had no money and, if she could not get any, would never go out any more but would do away with herself. Soon afterwards they parted, and a man, who is described as respectably dressed, came up, and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money. The man then accompanied the woman to her lodgings, which are on the second floor, and the little boy was removed from the room and taken to a neighbour's house. Nothing more was seen of the woman until yesterday morning, when it is stated that the little boy was sent back into the house, and the report goes, he was sent out subsequently on an errand by the man who was in the house with his mother. There is no direct confirmation of this statement."

The oddest mention of Kelly having a child comes from the Star of the 10th of November. After leaving Kelly, Barnett went to live at Buller's Lodging House, 25 New Street. The Star reporter tracked Barnett down to a public house near his lodgings and interviewed him. This interview appears to quote Barnett as confirming that Kelly had a child:
"JOE BARNETT'S STATEMENT.
In a public-house close by Buller's the reporter succeeded later on in finding Barnett, who is an Irishman by parentage and a Londoner by birth. He had lived with her for a year and a half, he said, and should not have left her except for her violent habits. She was a Limerick woman by birth, he says, but had lived in Dublin for some time. She went by the name of Mary Jane, but her real name was Marie Jeanette. He knew nothing about her proceedings since he left her, except that his brother met her on the Thursday evening and spoke to her. He himself had been taken by the police down to Dorset-street, and had been kept there for two hours and a half. He saw the body by peeping through the window.
To our reporter Barnett said he and the deceased were very happy and comfortable together until another woman came to sleep in their room, to which he strongly objected. Finally, after the woman had been there two or three nights he quarrelled with the woman whom he called his wife and left her. The next day, however, he returned and gave Kelly money. He called several other days and gave her money when he had it. On Thursday night he visited her between half-past seven and eight, and told her he was sorry he had no money to give her. He saw nothing more of her. She used occasionally to go to the Elephant and Castle district to visit a friend who was in the same position of life as herself. Kelly had a little boy, aged about six or seven years, living with her."

Apart from the question of Kelly’s child, this statements contains other matters of interest:
1) Barnett’s assertion that Kelly had lived in Dublin fits with the area of Ireland from which the family Mary Ann Kelly, of Flint, was listed as originating.
2) In this account there is yet another motive quoted by Barnett for leaving Kelly, namely her violent habits.
3) He specifically says that his brother had met and spoken with Kelly on Thursday evening, the 8th. This fits the assertion of Maurice Lewis that he saw Kelly with “Danny,” presumably Daniel Barnett.
4) We do not have a definite time for Barnett going to the police from the lodging house in which he was staying. However, his assertion that he saw the body by peeping through the window suggests this may have been before the door was forced at 1.30 p.m.

What are we to make of this? There is no definite record of Kelly having a child. But, there again, as we have seen, there is no definite record of Kelly doing anything! In the light of Kelly's colourful past and her time spent on the streets it is by no means beyond the bounds of possibility that at some stage she had fallen pregnant or had even given birth to a child. However, there is not one shred of evidence from the inquest or any statement by a witness that Kelly had a child living with her at the time of her death or shortly before. The attribution of the statement to Barnett that this had been the case could be the result of some creative journalism, appending a supposed item of information which had appeared in the press to Barnett's words to give them a spurious legitimacy.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Miss Marple,
It was reported in 'The star' as a comment from Barnett that she had a boy of six or seven living with her.'
That of course can be misinterpreted , but unless he mentioned 'just that' it would apply a deliberate misquote .
That along with all the other 'Obvious' misquotes, regarding a child, would suggest that a lot of people were talking about the wrong person... but Joseph Barnett hardly.
Regards Richard.

[miss marple]

The 'boy' is newspaper gossip. No one from Joe Barnett to Julia Venturney, Maria Harvey, Elizabeth Prater,Sarah Lewis, Mary Ann Cox, John McCarthy, Mrs 'Carthy of Breezers Hill, etc. mentioned a child.There was no child living with her, just her and Joe.
Everything we supposedly know about her life has not included a child at any point.

Miss Marple

[mariab]

I thought that the idea about a boy sometimes staying over with MJK generated from the (uncorroborated?) report that there were boy's clothes found in her room? And if so, maybe she was about to sell them/mend them/whatnot?

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. I'll say. "The Echo" had Mary and her young son on their way to buy milk when the contratemps occurred.

Cheers.
LC

Probably for his cocopops, Lynn.
Sorry..

[Beowulf]

[QUOTE As some of you may be aware I am now leaving the area of Ripper studies for other pastures with one exception. I will continue to submit material to Adam for the Press Trawl in the Ripperologist.
To all the friends I made on Casebook my thanks and good wishes and I wish all of you the very best and happy hunting.[/QUOTE]

I do wish you luck on whatever new venture you are going into. I am so glad you are going to continue to write for Ripperologist, although I am new this news sort of has me feeling a little crestfallen.

You see, I am so new as to believe writers and investigators such as yourself are the reason we will eventually know who JTR was. Maybe a wild idea, but you obviously have shed a light where it was darkened previously.

Thank you for that.

[lynn cates]

Echo

Hello Debs. I'll say. "The Echo" had Mary and her young son on their way to buy milk when the contratemps occurred.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. I did not laugh.

But I'm astonished that no family were in London. If true, it was misreported.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, I know you didn't. I didn't know of Chris's research when I posted it though so I'm quite chuffed with my idea now.
There was a lot of conflicting newspaper coverage about MJK that couldn't all possibly have been true, could it?

[miss marple]

Chris tell us about your book, when did all this new Kelly stuff come up?

McCarthy's son John [ Steve] did not marry Marie Kendall till 1895,[ born 1873, Bethnal Green real name Holyome] their marriage was not happy. Marie was a big star starting as a child, and a principle boy,Steve not so. She was quite a beautiful woman. Granddaughter Kay Kendall. I have a nice picture of her which I will post if I can work out how my scanner works.

Miss Marple

[lynn cates]

He who laughs last, . . .

Hello Debs. I did not laugh.

But I'm astonished that no family were in London. If true, it was misreported.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Chris. Thanks for posting this. Were these the Flint family mentioned in your book?

Sorry that you are leaving Ripper studies. Good luck in your further ventures.

Cheers.
LC