Who left whom?

[GregBaron]

Cyclical madness...

Oh, now we have to look for a killer that can only kill during a "severe and long episode" ?
I'm respectfully stunned.

Greetings all,

Episodes can indeed recur.

During a violent delusional episode say the schizophrenic murders. He somehow recovers (before modern medication) through self-medication or some peculiarity of his brain chemistry. He’s Ok for awhile then depression sets in, then the neurotransmitters again begin firing frenetically and haphazardly..another delusional episode begins……..this could take days or weeks………he begins another prowl to murder for whatever delusional reason, most often to save himself or the world…….I’m not saying this is what happened with our Jack but if schizophrenic, it’s a possibility…


The results are the same as the tension build-up in the psychopath. The murder usually relieves tension for a time. Then the sadistic, sexual, depraved, necrophilic urges begin to build again. The cycle can be days or weeks. Then the psychopath begins trawling for another victim. This describes Ted Bundy’s rhythm’s at least…



Greg

[lynn cates]

episodic

Hello Greg. Indeed.

In fact, I believe that the Kosminski supporters think this is precisely what happened.

And in my lad's file it was stated that he was near the end of a very violent episode and should make a goodl recovery as at other times.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Greetings all,

Episodes can indeed recur.

During a violent delusional episode say the schizophrenic murders. He somehow recovers (before modern medication) through self-medication or some peculiarity of his brain chemistry. He’s Ok for awhile then depression sets in, then the neurotransmitters again begin firing frenetically and haphazardly..another delusional episode begins……..this could take days or weeks………he begins another prowl to murder for whatever delusional reason, most often to save himself or the world…….I’m not saying this is what happened with our Jack but if schizophrenic, it’s a possibility…


The results are the same as the tension build-up in the psychopath. The murder usually relieves tension for a time. Then the sadistic, sexual, depraved, necrophilic urges begin to build again. The cycle can be days or weeks. Then the psychopath begins trawling for another victim. This describes Ted Bundy’s rhythm’s at least…



Greg

A friend of mine, with whom I lost touch for many years, told me that before he was diagnosed with schizophrenia he was hearing voices, but everyone around him would deny saying any thing.

He was committed because he became violent. He became violent because no one would admit to the voices, which he said said just silly things, such as "Oh, look he's buying" a certain type of cereal, and there would not be anyone in the grocery store aisle with him.

The voices simply "drove him crazy" as he tried to force someone to tell him the truth and admit to saying something.

[DVV]

Hi Greg

Episodes can indeed recur.
During a violent delusional episode say the schizophrenic murders. He somehow recovers (before modern medication) through self-medication or some peculiarity of his brain chemistry. He’s Ok for awhile then depression sets in, then the neurotransmitters again begin firing frenetically and haphazardly..another delusional episode begins……..this could take days or weeks………he begins another prowl to murder for whatever delusional reason, most often to save himself or the world…….I’m not saying this is what happened with our Jack but if schizophrenic, it’s a possibility…
The results are the same as the tension build-up in the psychopath. The murder usually relieves tension for a time. Then the sadistic, sexual, depraved, necrophilic urges begin to build again. The cycle can be days or weeks. Then the psychopath begins trawling for another victim. This describes Ted Bundy’s rhythm’s at least…

Greg

Well and good, but that was not what I was replying to. The idea that Fleming, considered a schizo, cannot be the Ripper because he could just kill during "episodes" that are generally shorter than the Ripper murder's spree is utterly extravagant.

[mariab]

I know next to nothing about Fleming (apart from having read the recent research on his medical records), but I see the Ripper as a sociopath and not a schizophrenic. His MO and the circumstances around the Whitechapel murders speak strongly for this. Thus I don't adhere too much on Kozminski of Fleming (pardonne-moi, David!).

Morganstone was another chap (besides Fleming) with whom MJK "took up."

Wow, thanks. This chap had totally escaped my attention. Not susrprisingly, since I have more that I can deal with in my plate right now with the search for Schwartz in a Yiddish alphabet soup and the reading up on the WVC.

I now return you to Rossini. I can Tell you wish to make Overtures towards him. (Heh-heh)

Cute. The only dealings I presently have with the Tell Ouverture is I hope to ice skate to it tomorrow. LOL. Just finished working with the commedia dell'arte farse and about to start working on the sentimental comic operas today. Then there are the Turkish comic operas left, and incidentally these are the 3 Parts that structure Part 1 of my book, where self-reflexion of the comic opera genre will play a great part in the discussion.

"On voit des biches qui remplacent leurs beaux cerfs par des sangliers" (Victor Hugo)

Ouch! Guilty as sin myself on this behaviour. LOL. Hadn't even know Hugo said that.

Because he was not working and they had nothing to live on. She could not work as effectively if Barnett continued living there with her -- not to mention the fights that brought on.

Spot on, Curious. That's how I see the situation too. A little bit like a poor man's Manon Lescaut, David. ;-)

It also appears that it was her room. Remember McCarthy's testimony that he rented the room to her

There have been suspicions expressed that McCarthy might have been involved in some fashion (business?) with MJK and some people find his report of finding her suspicious, as if he had known of her death earlier. There's an extensive article on McCarthy in Ripper Notes issue #20-something, but I haven't read it in a while and don't have it here with me in Chicago.

[DVV]

I know next to nothing about Fleming (apart from having read the recent research on his medical records), but I see the Ripper as a sociopath and not a schizophrenic. His MO and the circumstances around the Whitechapel murders speak strongly for this. Thus I don't adhere too much on Kozminski of Fleming (pardonne-moi, David!).

Hello Maria,
I can't see why Fleming wouldn't be a sociopath. We don't know enough but the little we have certainly doesn't speak against the possibility.
I bet it's hot and sunny in Chicago.

[Stephen Thomas]

“I shall have to leave him“ is incorrect English.

Au contraire, Maria, it is perfectly correct English. For instance, an English speaker might say 'I shall have to go to the shop to buy toilet paper' if such action is necessary. How's about 'If you shall continue to call my wife a prostitute I shall punch you on the nose'.

I shall take Manhatten (and Statten Island too).

[mariab]

Au contraire, Maria, it is perfectly correct English. For instance, an English speaker might say 'I shall have to go to the shop to buy toilet paper' if such action is necessary. How's about 'If you shall continue to call my wife a prostitute I shall punch you on the nose'.
I shall take Manhatten (and Statten Island too).

Wow, thanks. I'm still acquainting myself with British English. I had expected “I shall need to leave him (at some point)“ to be the correct form.
I'm more familiar with “He don't speak no English“ (spoken with a Staten Island accent) or “Dude, awesome, I dunno how you do it bro. Gnar-ly.“ (spoken with sunny/lazy South Cali 'ttude).

Hello Maria,
I can't see why Fleming wouldn't be a sociopath. We don't know enough but the little we have certainly doesn't speak against the possibility.
I bet it's hot and sunny in Chicago.

David, you mean that MJK's Fleming might have been another one than the one with the medical records?
Like everywhere else in the world, Chicago spots atypical spring and sunny weather (with some snow left on the ground for good measure). Later on I'm going to the Lyric to see Aida with my boss, to whom I've commissioned Lynn's joke about his being able to Tell of my making Ouvertures to Rossini and to strange men. The latter part might fit, but probly the other way around.

[curious]

There have been suspicions expressed that McCarthy might have been involved in some fashion (business?) with MJK and some people find his report of finding her suspicious, as if he had known of her death earlier. There's an extensive article on McCarthy in Ripper Notes issue #20-something, but I haven't read it in a while and don't have it here with me in Chicago.

I am aware of some of those, and don't rule out either of the ones that have come to my mind.

One was that he was forcing her into prostitution for the rent money, perhaps acting as her (and others) pimp.

Another, that he had ties to Ireland and that perhaps his family and her family were somehow connected.

there may be others that don't come to mind immediately.

It appears that McCarthy thought MJ and Joe's last name was Kelly, did not appear to know that Joe was a Barnett.

Got a story to write . . .

[curious]

Later on I'm going to the Lyric to see Aida with my boss, to whom I've commissioned Lynn's joke about his being able to Tell of my making Ouvertures to Rossini and to strange men. The latter part might fit, but probly the other way around.

just don't make overtures to your boss.

[DVV]

David, you mean that MJK's Fleming might have been another one than the one with the medical records?

Certainly not, they are one and the same. In 1888, Fleming moved to Whitechapel, he lived in the anonymous VH and was known to ill-use MJK. He may have resumed his trade and made a living by other means. When in Stone he seemed to live in his own world and was noted for being "very abusive" at times.
I can't see any indication that he was not a sociopath here, but again, I can't deduce the Ripper's problem looking at the crime scenes.
Mental diseases often combine, don't they ? Or is it our concepts that overlap ?

[mariab]

just don't make overtures to your boss.

Too late for that. My boss and I are like Siamese twins, only closer. And sicker. :-)

Mental diseases often combine, don't they ? Or is it our concepts that overlap?

In my opinion, David, this happens only when the defendant's faking it.

[DVV]

An excellent faker, then. 28 years in the asylum.

[Wickerman]

Hello Velma. The date was November 17, 1888. Of course, it was SUPPOSED to be from inquest.

It would be interesting if it really were what MJK had confided in Julia.

Cheers.
LC

There is a copy in the Press Reports:

"Julia Vanternie, a German said that she lived in Miller-court, and knew the deceased, who was an unfortunate. The man "Joe," who was living with her, objected to her going on the streets. The deceased had lived with another man, whom she was very fond of. She had said to witness, "Joe has been a good fellow to me. I shall have to leave him." On the night of the murder witness felt strange, thinking that she heard noises. The deceased was singing some Irish songs during the night."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/east_london_advertiser/ela881117.html

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Ela

Hello Jon. Thanks. "East London Advertiser" eh? And word for word.

Cheers.
LC