Another Joe.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Rather then going off thread, which I am guilty of doing, I am starting another .
I am not suggesting that Mary Kelly was not fond of a man called Joe, which was not Barnett, and I am not suggesting ,that a J Fleming was not part of her past.
What I have suggested is that, the Joe that ill-used her, who was thought to have been a costermonger, may not have been the masons plasterer Fleming.
The name Joe was a common name , and its not inconceivable that she knew another man by that name,
We have the asylum records of J Fleming, alias Evans, which suggest he was possibly Mary's Ex, his mothers name, his occupation, his birth place etc, however we also have it in black and white, [albeit disputed,] that this Fleming was 6'7'' tall, and seems therefore extremely unlikely that he was Kelly'S Joe.
Its all very well suggesting that the height was a error, but we have no proof, so must go by the records, until proven otherwise.
If we take it all in context, we have one Joe Fleming a plasterer, who was at one time very fond of Mary Kelly, a man Kelly admitted a mutual feeling, we also have at the time of her death , a report that she was fond of another man named Joe, who ill-used her [ no reports of Joe the plasterer ever being abusive] who was a thought to have been a costermonger, not a plasterer, not a docker.
So I am suggesting that it is entirely possible that the other Joe may have been someone new in her life, and J Fleming by that time was history.
Maybe she had a passion for men of that name....
The man in the asylum , may well have been the man who resided in the Victoria home, who may well have been a plasterers labourer at one time, but I doubt that he was Kelly's ex sweetheart.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

2 Flemings

Hello Richard. This is a good idea for a thread. Thanks.

Does this approximate the distinction between Chris Scott's Fleming and Bob Hinton's chap by the same name?

LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The reason I don't believe Fleming was the ill-user of Kelly, is because of the timeline.
We are led to believe that Fleming the plasterer was so fond of Mary, that her ex landlady believed he would have married her, we are also led to believe that she was fond also of him[ according to Barnett].
Yet clearly they had parted before Barnett met Mary on the 7TH April 1887, so one of them had grown tired of the other before that meeting.
So are we suggesting that for over 18 months Joe Fleming had pestered Mary, and ill used her, for her continuing affair with Barnett, and even after this, she was very fond of him, she clearly would not have been too amused with his interference[ most ex's are not] neither would her common law husband Barnett.
So I am suggesting, that it is much more likely that someone fresher on the scene was in Kelly's life, someone who was jealous of Barnett being in favour, and that was the Joe that she was fond of.
I am in no way disputing Fleming being a ex of Kelly's, just being in her life during that Autumn.
As for Fleming , alias Evans in the asylum, we really have to have conformation of his correct height.
Was it a tall skinny giant, or was it a 5'7'' stocky man, which considering he at times weighed 11stone 10lb, must have been meaty, to have been that short with that weight in 1888.
Regards Richard.

[Rubyretro]

Was it a tall skinny giant, or was it a 5'7'' stocky man, which considering he at times weighed 11stone 10lb, must have been meaty, to have been that short with that weight in 1888.
Regards Richard.[/QUOTE]

That is true Richard -for a very poor, mentally ill, man he would weigh alot
for 5'7".

[DVV]

Was it a tall skinny giant, or was it a 5'7'' stocky man, which considering he at times weighed 11stone 10lb, must have been meaty, to have been that short with that weight in 1888.
Regards Richard.

Oh dear....are you telling us that a HEALTHY-SO-SKINNY-GIANT is more likely than a 5'7 for 70kg guy ????

Once again: healthy.

And 1m70 for 70kg is just normal for somebody who has been in the building trade at an early age.

[DVV]

That is true Richard -for a very poor, mentally ill, man he would weigh alot
for 5'7".

Hi Ruby,

are you suggesting that JtR was rich and not mentally ill ?

As for Hutch, in no regular employment, he sure can't be the rather stout Wideawake Hat, according to that "logic".

[DVV]

From other threads, people can see researchers like Debra Arif and Chris Scott are still documenting Fleming's biography.

And it turns out, not surprisingly, that MJK ex-fiancé was Joseph Fleming, born 1859, son of Richard and Henrietta Fleming, who would once called himself James Evans and died at Claybury.

Until they find a "more matching Fleming" (good luck on this), people who were recently posting here and there that Fleming wasn't Fleming should keep their thoughts for themselves and comment other topics.

[Lechmere]

Actually the research is differentiating between two Joseph Flem(m)ings, one of whom lived at various points in the Victoria Home, ended up in the insane asylum and was 6 foot 7 inches tall.
No ‘proof’ has been presented to show that this person is Mark Kelly’s ex boyfriend.

[DVV]

Actually the research is differentiating between two Joseph Flem(m)ings, one of whom lived at various points in the Victoria Home, ended up in the insane asylum and was 6 foot 7 inches tall.
No ‘proof’ has been presented to show that this person is Mark Kelly’s ex boyfriend.

How funny.

Clearly, Fleming-the-plasterer-son-of-Richard-the-plasterer was MJK ex-fiancé and died at Claybury.
The only other Joseph Fleming from Bethnal Green (for the relevant period) isn't a plasterer, so the case is CLOSED.

Unless you've found a better candidate for MJK boyfriend. If so, please tell the world about your fantastic discovery.

But of course you have NOTHING. Since the start.

[DVV]

Hi Richard

Rather then going off thread, which I am guilty of doing, I am starting another .

Thanks for that, Richard.

What I have suggested is that, the Joe that ill-used her, who was thought to have been a costermonger, may not have been the masons plasterer Fleming.

Problem is that the suggestion that Barnett and Venturney alluded to two different persons is untenable.
No wonder that Barnett did not say Fleming used to ill-use her. This is easily explained : perhaps Mary didn't tell him, perhaps he knew but was ashamed to give such a detail.
Anyway, I have to repeat your suggestion is untenable : Venturney talked of the same guy, and indeed, she seems to complete Barnett's words, using even the same vocabulary ("visit her", "very fond").

I bet 100 percent of the people present at the inquest were convinced both were alluding to the same Joe. And they were right.

Can't you realize that words thrown at the inquest are to be seriously taken, that Barnett and Venturney did not mention "Joe" without a good reason, which is : Fleming was still important in Mary's life.

You said below that Fleming "was history by that time" : wrong, as shown by Barnett and Venturney, but not only.

Morganstone WAS history. And Barnett didn't say he used to visit her, nor did he say Mary was very fond of him.

this Fleming was 6'7'' tall, and seems therefore extremely unlikely that he was Kelly'S Joe.

Sorry, but what a crap. Let me put it right : "The Fleming from Claybury was Kelly's Joe, as shown by Debra Arif, Chris Scott, Scott Nelson and others, then the incredible height and weight we find in the records may well be a mistake."

we have no proof, so must go by the records, until proven otherwise.

Well said. And going by the records, Fleming/Evans IS Kelly's Joe, until you can prove otherwise.

But that, you can't. There is no other candidate. Fleming has long been identified.

who was a thought to have been a costermonger, not a plasterer, not a docker.

How desperate is that argument, my friend. Venturney merely said "I think he was a costermonger". Moreover, we KNOW Fleming ceased to work as a plasterer at one time (at least, he said he was a dock labourer as early as 1889).

The picture we have is that of a rather poor Eastender trying to survive by various means.
Nothing to baulk at, don't you think ?

Has Toppy always been a plumber ?

So I am suggesting that it is entirely possible that the other Joe may have been someone new in her life, and J Fleming by that time was history.

No, it's not possible at all.
Read the inquest again and you will see the difference between Morganstone, who was history, and Joe who still used to visit her (clearly at the time Mary was living with Barnett, and saying otherwise is just foolish : where and when could he visit her ? if it was a year ago, why bother telling the inquest ? - not to mention that Venturney expressely said he ill-used her out of jealousy).

The man in the asylum , may well have been the man who resided in the Victoria home, who may well have been a plasterers labourer at one time, but I doubt that he was Kelly's ex sweetheart.

Problem is that your doubts are unsubstantiated, while various sources conclusively show Fleming-Evans was Kelly's Joe - various sources, Richard, and not a single, isolated, handwritten and already incredible 6'7.

[richardnunweek]

Hi DVV,
You are quite right in stating that Fleming at one time used to call on Kelly , and give her money, which is quite plausible considering he was 'fond' of her, but the trouble is we have no confirmation that the visits were recent.
Mary had lived with Barnett, in several lodging houses up to Feb 1888 , when they occupied room 13, are you suggesting that Fleming , who apparently was either cast aside by Kelly, or dumped by him, continued to make his presence felt during the latter stages of her life.
We have a report from Kelly's ex landlady that she brought home a ''strange'' young man to stay the night . which apparently was not Fleming, this apparently was recent .
Again I must mention the length of time , since Kelly and Fleming parted ways, it was prior to April 87, since then she had been with Barnett, and although Kelly's morals are in question, we have no reason to assume that the sour relationship blossomed once again between Kelly and Fleming, and if it did, why did she not walk out on Barnett, and shack up with love sick Joe, especially after Barnett lost his job as a fish porter, and even more likely after the latter walked out on the 30TH October.
I will suggest again that it is far more likely that she was having a bit on the side with another man called Joe, who was jealous of her living with Barnett, and not her plasterer ex ,who should have been used to her and his rival by now.
Does it seem likely, that someone who I would suggest, ended that relationship over 18 month previous, would eagerly return to her ex, who repeatedly abused her? apparently for some time.
Love is blind ..I guess
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

thesis

Hello David.

"Until they find a "more matching Fleming" (good luck on this), people who were recently posting here and there that Fleming wasn't Fleming should keep their thoughts for themselves and comment other topics."

So then Hinton's thesis is off the table?

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hello David.

"Until they find a "more matching Fleming" (good luck on this), people who were recently posting here and there that Fleming wasn't Fleming should keep their thoughts for themselves and comment other topics."

So then Hinton's thesis is off the table?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, I don't know this thesis.

[lynn cates]

thesis--again

Hello David. Well, he has found ANOTHER Joseph Flemming--different parents.

Chris Scott found the one we are currently discussing.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Absolutely delicious

Hi Richard

You are quite right in stating that Fleming at one time used to call on Kelly , and give her money, which is quite plausible considering he was 'fond' of her

The sources say she was fond of him. Anyway...

but the trouble is we have no confirmation that the visits were recent.

Where do you want to get at ? The impression is that these visits were more or less regular.They occured between april 87 and Nov 88. That's all we know.
Once again, I have no idea where you want to get at, but since you apparently want to make these visits as old as possible, I can only point out that recent visits have more chance to be alluded to and considered important than older ones.
Now, why would these visits ceased ? Did Barnett say he forbid them ? I don't think even he had ever seen Fleming.
What is sure is that Fleming was dossing in the area, very close to Mary, in August or September 88.

This is what we have, Richard. Now it's up to you to believe the guy ceased to visit her once close to her, and that these visits, as mentioned by the witnesses, look like old memories.

We have a report from Kelly's ex landlady that she brought home a ''strange'' young man to stay the night . which apparently was not Fleming, this apparently was recent .

I sincerely hope you are not suggesting that this episode is more recent than Fleming's visits.

I will suggest again that it is far more likely that she was having a bit on the side with another man called Joe, who was jealous of her living with Barnett, and not her plasterer ex ,who should have been used to her and his rival by now.

What you call "far more likely" is actually completely unlikely : that Barnett and Venturney Joes are two different persons. It's a gross mistake, and you can be confident that all the people present at the inquest did understand it was the same guy.

Does it seem likely, that someone who I would suggest, ended that relationship over 18 month previous, would eagerly return to her ex, who repeatedly abused her? apparently for some time.
Love is blind ..I guess

I have no idea what you're talking about, Richard.