Another Joe.

[DVV]

Hello David. Well, he has found ANOTHER Joseph Flemming--different parents.

Chris Scott found the one we are currently discussing.

Cheers.
LC

The boot-finisher or another one ?

[lynn cates]

loose ends

Hello David. I thought it was another one.

Hopefully, some loose ends can be tied up here.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello David. I thought it was another one.

Hopefully, some loose ends can be tied up here.

Cheers.
LC

are these loose ends going to be tied up with string, or is this clutching at straws instead

[lynn cates]

GH theorist

Hello Malcolm. Well, if I recall properly, Bob Hinton is a GH theorist.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

About loose ends, Lynn, I must say I feel sorry for those desperately looking for a better Fleming than Fleming.

Asylum records : Joseph Fleming / Barnett at the Inquest: "Joseph Flem(m)ming"

Asylum records and censuses :Born in Bethnal Green, had lived there / Barnett : "He lived in Bethnal Green Road"

Mrs McCarthy/ Phoenix: Breezer's Hill off Pennington Street / Barnett : "She told me that in Pennington Street she lived at one time with a Morganstone, and with Joseph Fleming"

Census : Son of a plasterer / Barnett : "He was a mason plasterer" / McCarthy : "a man who was apparently in the building trade".

[lynn cates]

mental illness

Hello David. I know what you mean. I daresay it was the mental illness aspect that aroused our interest in the first place.

Seems to fit.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi DVV,
With regard to you not knowing what I am talking about, let me clarify.
We have no idea when Fleming's relationship with Kelly halted, and we have no evidence who was responsible for the break up.
We however can make an educated guess, that Mary tired of the relationship, rather like her reference to Barnett,''I cant bear the man'', and Barnetts claim that Kelly told him she went to Paris with a gent, but did not like it, also we could add one of kelly's neighbours[ Mrs Hewitt?] words.'' she used to go and stay with Lawrence, but returned to her room , when she tired of it''.
Taking the insinuation that Fleming was fond enough of Mary to marry her, it would point to Mary Kelly was responsible for starting a new relationship..hence Barnett in 1887.
It is more then likely that for a time Fleming felt responsible for Mary and was able to give her some money , which is similar to Barnett's behaviour, but I would suggest that this was a initial token , and not a permanent ongoing, especially some 18 months standing.
All we have is the knowledge that Kelly's ex boyfriend was a man called Joseph Fleming, and he was 'Fond of her',
We do not know that the ''other Joe'' featured by Venturney, that Kelly said she was very fond of, was the same man that had been in her life some time before ie Fleming, at no time is it recorded that she was fond of Fleming.
I still maintain that a new admirer entered her life, during that autumn, he could even be the man she took to her ex land-lady's house, which was recorded as ''not long ago''.
A new male friend is much likely to take offence of her relationship with Barnett, then a person who was aware of that steady relationship, for a long time.
His name happened to be the same.
Regards Richard.

[DVV]

Hi Richard

We however can make an educated guess, that Mary tired of the relationship

I'm not sure we can make any guess on this, really not sure.

Taking the insinuation that Fleming was fond enough of Mary to marry her, it would point to Mary Kelly was responsible for starting a new relationship..hence Barnett in 1887.

How do you know he wanted to marry her more than she wanted to ?
That is speculation for the sake of speculation, I'm afraid.

All we have is the knowledge that Kelly's ex boyfriend was a man called Joseph Fleming, and he was 'Fond of her',

Speak for yourself, my friend, because I don't have that knowledge. As far as I know, both Barnett and Venturney said she was fond of him, not the reverse.

I still maintain that a new admirer entered her life, during that autumn, he could even be the man she took to her ex land-lady's house, which was recorded as ''not long ago''.

Yes, you are still denying the obvious, now you create a "new admirer" out of I don't know what, and that is becoming absolutely ridiculous.

His name happened to be the same.

Indeed. And guess why.

[Debra A]

Loose end tying has begun

Hello David. Well, he has found ANOTHER Joseph Flemming--different parents.

Chris Scott found the one we are currently discussing.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
Here's what I posted yesterday on another Fleming thread where Bob discusses his candidate (who was also mentioned by Mark Ripper back in 2008, I must add)
Post #66

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4702&page=7

[Lechmere]

This is the problem of fitting up Fleming into any suspect frame.

The name Joe Fleming comes to us second hand from Kelly’s spurned lover Joe Barnett.
Virtually every detail Kelly told Barnett about herself cannot be substantiated and seems to have been coloured. Barnett says he was from Bethnal Green and was a mason’s plasterer.

We have the Carthy woman mentioning that Kelly went out with someone involved in the building trade. That is not much with which to substantiate the Barnett story.
We have Venturney saying that Kelly was still seeing someone called Joe who she thought was a costermonger.

Presuming this Fleming existed, that is the only evidence that Kelly was still seeing Fleming. It is based on a common – very common – first name.

Two Joe Flemings of roughly the right age have been identified as living in Bethnal Green.
One can pretty much be discounted as being a candidate for Kelly’s ex-lover.

The other was listed as a plasterer in 1881. This guy was living in the Victoria Home for periods between 1889 and 1892 and was sent to an insane asylum after being taken i by the police and giving a false name. However his true identity soon came to light. He was a dock labourer and his height was recorded as being 6 feet seven inches. It is objected that his weight was also recorded as being ‘only eleven and a half stone or thereabouts and his health as good. But that is looking at things through well fed bourgeois eyes in the second decade of the 21st century. Inmates were frequently skinny and undernourished yet routinely listed as being in good health. That is how the ‘health service’ operate in those far off days.
In the absence of anything to contradict it, the 6 foot seven figure has to stand – it is as simple as that.

There are further reasons for discounting this Fleming as a potential suspect.

If he was Kelly’s ex-lover and had he still been seeing her – and misusing her, remember – in the run up to her murder, then it is inconceivable that the police would not have wanted to see him. They grilled Barnett that’s for sure.
Even if he could not be located in November 1888 as he was living anonymously somewhere – perhaps under a false name – then they would have tracked him down when he was carted off by the police to the City of London Workhouse Infirmary in 1892.
The police routinely were on the look out for lunatics as potential Ripper suspects. Here we have someone sharing the name of Kelly’s ex lover who supposedly misused her, and some would have us believe was still seeing her up to her death, sent to the loony bin and after giving a false name to the police – a false name that lasted about one day before he was sussed out.
That tells me that this guy was not the same Fleming.
If he was then the police knew he had nothing to do with it.

I will caution against trying to suggest he was living under a false name in November 1888 as the evidence suggests otherwise. He was admitted to the Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary in November 1889 and to do this claimed residence in Whitechapel for the previous 14 months. He could have just blagged this, but it is likely he could ‘prove’ residence as he had been living somewhere – perhaps the Victoria Home, perhaps several locations, under his real name.

I would suggest that if Kelly did see someone called Joe Fleming, then either he was long gone by November 1888, or he was seen and quickly discounted.

[lynn cates]

quaestiones

Hello Debs. Thanks for the link.

Have you:

1. ascertained the accuracy of the height listing?

2. figured out whether this is the dock labourer referred to as a "giant of a man"?

On another note, has Bob responded to this?

I love it when you tie up loose ends.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Thanks for the link.

Have you:

1. ascertained the accuracy of the height listing?

2. figured out whether this is the dock labourer referred to as a "giant of a man"?

On another note, has Bob responded to this?

I love it when you tie up loose ends.

Cheers.
LC

In a nutshell, Lynn-
No to all three. :-)

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Debs. Thanks. And I deeply appreciate your conciseness.

Was it Richard Nunweek who uncovered the "giant' of a man passage? Was that written by some labour agitator?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Thanks. And I deeply appreciate your conciseness.

Was it Richard Nunweek who uncovered the "giant' of a man passage? Was that written by some labour agitator?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, the long winded version would be far too boring.
But, seeing as I know you love coincidences:
Ben Tillett, mate of Flemming the "brawny giant",first mentioned by Richard Nunweek, lived in Royston Street Bethnal Green in 1881 and was a shoemaker.
Bob's Hinton's Joseph Flemming (also mentioned by Mark Ripper) , who I don't think was the 1881 plasterer and I know wasn't the man using the alias James Evans, but probably was the french polisher in the Poplar Union workhouse at that time, sent from the Bethnal Green workhouse (as the WH records I (Debra Arif) trawled seem to show), also claimed to have lived in Royston Street Bethnal Green and was apprenticed to a shoemaker ( but not Ben Tillet). Date unknown, but found by Chris Scott in the settlement records for Bethnal Green workhouse....pheww.

It's good to credit

[lynn cates]

oy

Hello Debs. Thanks. My response? "Aw, bloody . . . "

Don't be surprised to find my body floating in the Thames. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC