A PoinT To Ponder

[Phil H]

LC

I have Butterworth's book but have not had time to do more than dip into it at the moment. I must find time to do it justice - perhaps my opinion might change.

Thanks for the advice.

Phil

[SarahLee]

Mining and Cardiff

The thing about indigenous languages, they tend to survive in the hills away from the big cities. She is said to have come from Cardiff, a mining community may well have retained the old traditions, especially of language.

Not that it has a huge bearing on the discussion in hand, but I thought I'd add a few words about Victorian industry in Cardiff.
Cardiff isn't and never has been a mining town. In the LVP, industry was focused around the docks and the iron industry . . . in fact it's been described as the "boomtown" of late Victorian Britain.
The collieries in the South Wales valleys were not that far away from Cardiff (accounting for its success in shipping) but the city itself had no direct connection with mining.

With its blossoming industries there's no great surprise that Cardiff was a magnet for immigration during this period . . . and for that reason it's unlikely that Welsh was widely spoken. (as Claire pointed out regarding mining communities)
In fact, I'd be willing to bet that there are more Welsh speakers in Cardiff today than there were back then. In recent years it's experienced a bit of a revival and it's suddenly become trendy to speak Welsh.

[Phil H]

Welsh is a wonderful language unless one wants to refer to anything invented since about 1780!

Phil

[belinda]

A brief history of Welsh

http://users.comlab.ox.ac.uk/geraint.jones/about.welsh/

[claire]

Thanks for the clarification, Phil; much appreciated. For me, at the moment, I'd like to see a far more robust argument presented about possible Fenian links; in my opinion, the arguments against it are stronger right now. Then again, it's not an area that I research, so perhaps I'd feel differently if I spent my days with it!

Welsh; marvellous language. My three kids speak it passably well, but I can only manage greetings, colours and numbers. Sad, really. It's quite posh to speak Welsh now, I think.

[Phil H]

Claire

For me, at the moment, I'd like to see a far more robust argument presented about possible Fenian links; in my opinion, the arguments against it are stronger right now.

I believe that other posters on this site are eager to see the Special Branch registers that have been mentioned in theses and books and that efforts were being made to get released under the UK Freedom of Information (FOI) Act.

If those records were released and indicated that (say) Eddowes and her partner Kelly were paid informers (as has, I think, been suggested), then I think it would throw the Ripper case open wider than at any time since Druitt's name came into the frame in the 60s and the files were opened in the 70s.

Eddowes use of the name Kelly, for instance, might take on a new significance. The approach of the authorities to the series of murders might be perceived in a new light. And so on.

Does anyone know where the FOI case stands, I don't recall seeing any update here for some while? I must admit that as someone who deals professionally with FOI cases daily in my work, I am not optimistic that the registers will be released (I think the authorities will take the view that even now the descendents of informers might be at risk from certain violent and unreasoning people (and who says they would not be right given the recent reappearance of sectarian murders in the province?). Another reason would be that a precedent would be set about eventual release of such personal information which would deter future informers from coming forward. Parliament some years ago threw out an idea to release 20th Century census data to researchers earlier than after the lapse of 100 years, because an absolute commitment had been given by past Governments, and because to do so might inhibit those filling out future census forms as they might believe that personal information would be made available before 100 years had elapsed, and perhaps mush less.

Off the thread, so forgive me, but I think the SB registers point is relevant to the previous comment made.

Phil

[belinda]

Who cleared out the room of Mary Janes things after the Police had finished? Did the Police take any of her things such as the letters in an attempt to trace her family?

[claire]

Phil, I think the latest update in the 'we're releasing nothing' saga has been posted elsewhere. But, as I say, *at the moment*, there's little but speculation there. I'd be as happy as anyone to see some movement, but it's not there yet.

[Phil H]

Claire thanks.

I'd picked up the thread with the update attachments.

I have very little hope - actually none - that the registers will be released. It has, I suspect little to do with them, per se, and more to do with the implications of release (possible risks to life of descendents) and the precedent which would be set (potentially destroying trust in confidentiality).

Another approach, once the FOI case has been resolved and after the heat has gone out of things, would be for a reputable and acknowledged academic historian (someone like Sugden) to seek access to the registers for research purposes under controlled conditions. This would allow someone knowledgable to ascertain whether there seems to be relevant information and possibly then to publish a summary (without names? or personal details) after clearance by the authorities.

This might at least allow us to establish whether there was a fenian angle to the Whitechapel murders.

I don't realistically anticipate much more.

Phil