A PoinT To Ponder

[claire]

Phil,

The Fenian idea is far and away the most implausible thing that seems to always come up in the Kelly saga. And why? Because any time there isn't enough information about someone, such an idea cannot be easily dismissed.

...

Mike

Couldn't have put it better myself. I'm weary of this Fenian thing with relation to the Mary Kelly case; I think it maintains the appearance of having legs because it is an acceptable subject for academic research, but there is absolutely zero in her story, beyond being hard to trace, that speaks to anyone of Fenian links. So she was servicing clients in Breezer's Hill, for certain; she was doing the same in Miller's Court. She managed to rack up large rent arrears, because she drank what little she made. She got evicted for drunken rowdiness from at least one place and, seemingly, spent her time (when not drinking or servicing) doing a bit of laundry and chatting with neighbouring women. That's some deep cover. But still, a bloke named Fleming was blown up four years before a bloke named Fleming was said to ill-use Mary, and she may or may not have been Irish, and she apparently sometimes visited someone in Elephant and Castle, which is in Southwark, and there was once a Fenian in Southwark. So, lo and behold, this poor, brutalised, dead young woman must have been a Fenian, and anyone that doesn't subscribe to the whole conjured thing just isn't capable of the rigorous historical and political research its adherents are.

Rant over. Sorry, I don't usually indulge. Apologies.

As for Welsh, I think she may have spoken Welsh. But it seems her main language was English, and if she was literate in one, she'd likely be literate in the other.

[Wickerman]

...As for Welsh, I think she may have spoken Welsh. But it seems her main language was English, and if she was literate in one, she'd likely be literate in the other.

Somehow I've misplaced Bruce Paley's book, but I don't recall Barnett ever commenting on Mary speaking Welsh, but he did say she asked him to read the (English) newspaper to her.
The thing about indigenous languages, they tend to survive in the hills away from the big cities. She is said to have come from Cardiff, a mining community may well have retained the old traditions, especially of language.

Regards, Jon S.

[claire]

I think the story was that she moved to Cardiff, where she went to the bad, helped along by a cousin. Seemingly, she moved there from elsewhere, which may or may not have been a place where Welsh was more widely spoken. The mining communities, in many ways, tended to see quite a lot of immigration from elsewhere in the British Isles, simply due to the availability of work--hence the continuing low numbers of Welsh speakers in those areas

I think there was only ever one mention of Mary speaking Welsh, and I've no real view on the subject, but if she could *read* Welsh, then she could likely read English. Any newspaper reading on Barnett's part would, therefore, be a matter of chivalry

[Wickerman]

I think the story was that she moved to Cardiff, where she went to the bad, helped along by a cousin. Seemingly, she moved there from elsewhere, which may or may not have been a place where Welsh was more widely spoken....

Yes, sorry, I meant, came to London from Cardiff, not that she originated from Cardiff. Apparently there's some confusion whether she moved to Cardiff from Carmarthen or Carnarvon(shire). Carmarthen is considerably nearer to Cardiff. However, Carnarvon is nearer to Dublin, and they must have emigrated through Dublin.


It is also said she use to sing Irish song's. If she constantly mentioned Cardiff, and occasionally spoke a foreign tongue, maybe people around her just assumed it was Welsh, maybe it was Gaelic.
In honesty, we don't know whether she was schooled in Ireland or Wales.

Regards, Jon S.

[claire]

Absolutely. Which takes us neatly back to the original question

[Phil H]

Sorry I haven't responded before now on the issue of MJK and the Fenians (I encountered a log-in problem).

For those who don't read posts too closely, I'd just like to point out that I am not positing some theory, I am playing with ideas. After 40 years reading and pondering this case I find that refreshing, mind stretching and a "good thing". Indeed, it is in my view essential given that we have comparatively little evidence available and much of it is contradictory or of unproven reliability. we simply don't know how this "jigsaw" fits together, so we have to try different combinations.


If others of you have problems with that approach:fine, but that's your issue not mine.

In fact, I think the "Fenian" idea does have some cogency. for the following reasons:


it is possible that the MJK murder was not by the same hand as canonical victims such as Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes (I'd now put that at a likelihood of at least 50:50 or even 60:40);

her backstory remains in large measure unsubstantiated;

her alleged Irish connections;

the alleged presence of an RIC officer at Miller's Court following the murder;

the handling of the inquest;

questions over a sighting of MJK agter the supposed hour of her death;

facial mutilations perhaps intended to disguise identity;

the involvement in the case of police officers and officials with a deep background in Irish/Fenian affairs (Munro/Anderson);

it would provide one possible explanation for Macnaghten wishing to have a "solution" on the file (there are others which I also find interesting);

it might provide an explanation for no murder following Kelly's (especially if another (other) hand(s) were responsible for Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and/or Stride);

the alleged connection between the "Rumbelow" knife and theose used in the Phoenix Park murders;

known Fenian activity in London in 1887;

and finally, we do not yet know the contents of the Special Branch registers which purportedly may link informers and the Whitechapel murders.[/LIST]

I could go on, but that'll do for now. [By the way the list above is intended to be seen as a whole, and for that reason I don't intend to discuss individual elements of it.]

Sorry if this "bores" some of you (and you are after all free to disagree) but personally I do think this is an avenue which is worth following if only to discount it - and we cannot yet do that. Ideas are meant to be played with and the facts remains for others to assemble as they wish - its not as though I had drawn red lines under the text of some piece of physical evidence.

Finally, I believe we need to challenge conventional thinking on the case if we are to progress. To progress we need either new evidence produced by research (for which this site proves its value day on day) or new approaches. I personally believe that the (relatively) new perceptions of there perhaps being more than one murderer at work; seeking new insights into senior police thinking; and the material on individuals such as Flemming;may well lead to breakthroughs.

Enough for now.

Phil

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The character assessment by the rough looking fellow in a Dorset street lodging house describing Mjk as a bit of a handful may have some merit, for a similar picture came from a elderly man in the late 1950s, who remembered her when a young man, and also describes her as very much 'not one to mess with.
Indeed we should bear in mind, that Barnett himself has her pushing him into the window and causing the breakage..''Aye Sir she pushed me in it''
So I would take the ''loved by all'' image with a pinch of salt...
Regards Richard.

[Chava]

If I recall correctly she had a bit of a reputation as a fighter. But I can't find the actual reference. I believe someone said said she was quiet and clean when sober but a very different woman when drunk. Either way she wasn't any kind of a saint.

As for speaking Welsh, I know of at least two people from Cardiff who grew up speaking Welsh at home. And there was a family of Welsh speakers in that Go Back Down the Mine tv program. Their antecedents had come from the South Wales colliery areas.

(And my Welsh nanny who was from Anglesey drilled me in basic Welsh phrases when I was tiny, so I can say 'how are you' and 'thank you' and also pronounce the long name of the town known locally as Llanfair PG'...)

[jason_c]

Hi,
The character assessment by the rough looking fellow in a Dorset street lodging house describing Mjk as a bit of a handful may have some merit, for a similar picture came from a elderly man in the late 1950s, who remembered her when a young man, and also describes her as very much 'not one to mess with.
Indeed we should bear in mind, that Barnett himself has her pushing him into the window and causing the breakage..''Aye Sir she pushed me in it''
So I would take the ''loved by all'' image with a pinch of salt...
Regards Richard.

Interesting stuff.


Where does this info come from?

[richardnunweek]

Hello Jason,
Its just one of those ''tit bits'' that I have known for years. possibly Cullen , Farson, even McCormack, but Farson looks the most likely, it was the ''Black Mary remark, and her pitch outside the Ten Bells'', and the swapping of shawls to escape detection from some scam.
Regards Richard.

[claire]

Phil, I understand the theory, and clearly investigating--even to disprove--a theory is perhaps the only tenable way to progress the case(s). I don't know that I agree with your 'these are all taken together so we're not going to debate the points individually' stance--it sort of shuts down debate. Sorry So I won't even try; I understand the instruction. Leave it to be said that all of those points have countering arguments, though.

[Phil H]

Claire


My list was intended simply to indicate that there is a accumulation of factors that might indicate it to be worthwhile examining a Fenian angle in regard to MJK. Nothing more. Either people take that point or not.

[To try to explain in a different way, I see it as rather like using an analogy in a discussion - there is no merit in picking the anaology apart to see whether it is appropriate, one either finds it useful or not. To discuss the analogy simply misses the point and changes the nature of the debate.]

All the points I included in my list have been debated individually here and elsewhere on many occasions over a long period and I am sure we are all more than aware of the pros and cons of each. Sniping at this point or that simply misses the point.

What I was trying to challenge was the apparent knee-jerk response of some posters to simply shy away from or belittle some potential explanations for MJKs death (however unrealisticor iconoclastic) because they do not fit with their own theories or are not to their taste.

Of course, I am prepared to debate any of these points/issues (within limits) collectively or individually. I am not wedded to any or all, but discussion usually illumines. However, probably best done in different or separate threads rather than high-jacking this one!

Hope this explains why I said what I did,

Phil

[The Good Michael]

Phil,

I would agree with the idea that picking apart each point of an argument brings all components into isolation and does not really counter the big picture. The Fenian idea is composed of nothing substantial at all except for a mention of (I can't remember the exact terminology) Irish police at Kelly's apartment sometime well after the murder. That is the catalyst for everything else in the theory. All other elements of the Kelly case that you have mentioned are created to support this probably insignificant piece of non-evidence. The theory holds no more water than if I suggested Stride's death was some part of an evil Jewish anrachist plot simply because she was murdered outside the Berner Street Club.... oh wait! People have said that. Okay bad analogy. Go back to your theorizing.

Mike

[Phil H]

I may not agree (or even perceive the basis for) with those who hypothesise some Jewish "message" within the murders - locations associated with Jewish organisations, the graffito etc - I have no objection to its being discussed. How could I?

I do see a difference between ideas that may not be well-founded but are exploring new ideas, and theories (such as the "royal conspiracy") where the alleged evidence has been exploded, or it is clear that the logic is deeply flawed. I am not sure we are yet at such a position with the "evil Jewish anrachist plot" or its variants.

Considering the unexpected or the novel can refresh/reinvigorate one's own thought processes in useful ways.

I recall being angry, shocked, etc etc when I first encountered the suggestion that there was either no JtR or only some of the murders should be ascribed to one hand. That was some years ago. Having let those ideas permeate my consciousness and sink in, I now find that I am quite open to the idea that "Jack" may only have been responsible for Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes, and that has opened up new avenues for me in regard to (amiong other things) who and why MJK was killed; the Stride murder and double event and which suspects might be "in the frame".

So I am all for speculating - though those who do so in the face of the evidence certainly need to argue their case well!

Thanks for you post Mike, it gave me a smile

[lynn cates]

reaction

Hello Phil. I know what you mean. I had the same initial reaction.

Nowadays, I think about the Warren memo from October 12. He remarked that the last murders (ie, double event) were obviously intended to bring discredit on Jews/socialists. Hence, I have made that observation my point of departure.

Research, in particular a reading of Butterworth's excellent book, has only fortified that position.

Cheers.
LC