A PoinT To Ponder

[Chava]

One more point about the letters: until fairly recently it was not usual to put return address information on the envelope of personal letters. I remember that this was done in Europe long before it was done in the UK where it didn't become common until the 1970s. So even if McCarthy did get letters for MJK, he wouldn't have known anything about who wrote them unless he read them himself.

[The Good Michael]

According to this http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...est_kelly.html, Kelly had 6 brothers living in London, one in the military and one named Henry. Henry and the military man could be one and the same. She also had a sister. If any of this was true, there would have at least been a brother or two at funeral, and a lot of next of kin to have been notified.

If McCarthy was telling the truth about letters addressed to Kelly, I'm certain they would have been addressed to Mary Jane Kelly as that is the name McCarthy gave at the inquest, and unless he was hiding something, he would have said diiferently had her name been otherwise. All the people at the inquest refer to her as Mary Jane Kelly as well.

If Fiona tells us anything different about who Kelly was, it kind of makes John look bad for not telling the whole truth. I'm fairly certain what we'll get from her will be unsubstantiated anyway and will only serve to muddle the muddle. I hope for something other than that, but I have my doubts.

Mike

[Rubyretro]

According to this http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...est_kelly.html, Kelly had 6 brothers living in London, one in the military and one named Henry. Henry and the military man could be one and the same. She also had a sister. If any of this was true, there would have at least been a brother or two at funeral, and a lot of next of kin to have been notified.

If McCarthy was telling the truth about letters addressed to Kelly, I'm certain they would have been addressed to Mary Jane Kelly as that is the name McCarthy gave at the inquest, and unless he was hiding something, he would have said diiferently had her name been otherwise. All the people at the inquest refer to her as Mary Jane Kelly as well.

If Fiona tells us anything different about who Kelly was, it kind of makes John look bad for not telling the whole truth. I'm fairly certain what we'll get from her will be unsubstantiated anyway and will only serve to muddle the muddle. I hope for something other than that, but I have my doubts.

Mike

thanks Mike;
Barnett states that Kelly was her maiden name, and that was the name she used. might the letters have been addressed to Mrs Mary Davi(e)s, and that is where the confusion arises ?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
McCarthy stated that she [ Mary] came to live with a man named Kelly, a coal porter, and as she posed as his wife ,became known as Mary Kelly.
We have always assumed that this man was Joseph Barnett, and kelly was a alias, but its all rather confusing.
If McCarthy was right then clearly Barnett was either using the name of kelly, which may have been Marys Maiden name, for reasons best known to the couple, or initially Barnett was not the man in room 13.
Regards Richard.

[Phil H]

Back on Casebook after a prolonged absence with a few points on this interesting thread:

As I understand it, in Victorian and earlier times, the illiterate would find some literate person to write their letters for them - dictating what they wanted said. The amanuensis might be a village priest or schoolteacher. Thus the mother might have written to her daughter. If the recipient was also illiterate, then the expectation was that he or she would find someone who could read to tell them the contents.

But we have no real evidence that MJK was illiterate. Barnett's reading to her from the papers could just be the Victorian habit of the man reading out extracts from the columns as he perused them.

As far as an address is concerned, MJK could have arranged for delivery to any domestic address - it appear she may have chosen McCarthy's chandlery at the last.

In point of fact, the letters could have come from anyone, with "Mary Jane Kelly" being a nom-de-plume (de guerre?) or alias. If she was a Fenian member or a double agent that would be easy to arrange. The story she then gave to McCarthy was that they were letters from family members - but need that be true? Unless, of course, McCarthy were a relative in which case he might have recognised the hand-writing or been given tidbits of family news.

As we have yet to find MJK in the record (even with a limited certainty), I do not feel that we can assume that her name or her identity are proven - and thus her backstory as told by Barnett, cannot be relied on as it stands.

I see real danger in building up tall edificies of theory on the foundations of conjecture and supposition - we simply do not have the evidence to do that.

The report that MJK and her partner, when first living at Miller's Court, were known as "Mr & Mrs Kelly" could mean anything - or nothing. Like the child it was an error or a misapprehension. On the other hand, what if the MJK of November 1888 were NOT the same woman as the original tenant, Mrs Kelly? Were McCarthy involved in some plot/conspiracy he might have had various women living in the room all of whom answered to the same "alias" (Kelly) - such a situation might explain why the descriptions of (and nicknames applied to) MJK - "Ginger", "Black Mary" etc and Mrs Mortimer's sighting - are so difficult to account for.

On two other small points:

Could the recorder of Barnett's testimony about the brother who wrote "Johnto" have misheard the words "Joe too" which would make sense. Barnett was a Joe and thus he was reporting that MJK had said her brother was "Joe too"?

I also like the idea (not mine, but I am not sure where I raed it) that the name of the brother was "Ianto" - a good Welsh name.

On the details of the Regiment, an spy or undercover agent might be expected to find out such details.

I'm NOT, I assure you, positing a theory here, just asking questions and seeking to make the point that what evidence we have can be interpreted in various ways.

Happy to discuss further,

Phil

[The Bounder]

Hi,

You are right, she did receive letters. However she also moved about a bit, so her family knew where to reach her. Perhaps she received her mail on some fixed adress while living somewhere else?

It is also interesting that Barrett said he had to read the paper to her. So either she knew only Welsh or she couldn't read at all. And if she couldn't read, she also couldn't write so how could she let her family know where she was living?

Greetings,

Addy

There was an interesting suggestion by one researcher, I forget who, but it could have been Paul Begg, who said that the phrase Barnett used about reading to Kelly could have been misconstrued, it could have meant that Kelly could read and Barnett read to her in a romantic fashion as new lover might do, albeit about a rather macabre subject. Sorry if I'm repeating what others might already have put here.

[The Good Michael]

Phil,

The Fenian idea is far and away the most implausible thing that seems to always come up in the Kelly saga. And why? Because any time there isn't enough information about someone, such an idea cannot be easily dismissed.

But, if she were a Fenian agent, they did a great job disguising her. They made her look like a down on her luck hooker living in the worst apartment on the worst street in London, and to make things even more convincing, they had her become a likely alcoholic. They risked her health and her life so that they could...what exactly?

She was a drunken, past her prime prostitute with no going back. There is nothing romantic about her situation. She was more than likely simply Mary Jane Kelly who came to London between censuses and died between them as well and that's why we have no information about her. The British government wasn't so organized about keeping records of their slaves from the west of Ireland, so it's no wonder there's nothing coming from that direction either.

The fact of the matter is that most people in the world die in relative obscurity. Had anyone had any foresight back then, they would have rounded up all of Kelly's relatives and written a memoir for passing on to modern times. They didn't because they didn't care. One more drunken prostitute dead. It's a pity.

Mike

[Chava]

I'm sorry but that Fenian idea is way too much of a stretch. Just because she was Irish she was involved with the Fenians?

Barnett obviously thinks of her as Mary Jane Kelly. There's no suggestion he knew she had an alias. I assume that's how she introduced herself to him. I do think it's possible she may have owed money to someone--lover/landlord/whatever--and skipped away. That could be one reason among many for the use of an alias. As has been pointed out a number of times, several of the other victims used different names as and when they pleased. Kelly could easily have told whoever was sending her letters that she was living under the name Mary Jane Kelly, and any and all correspondence was to go to that name at Millers Court. I doubt McCarthy actually opened the envelopes, so all he knew was that she received mail. She may have said it was from her family but whether it was or not would by known only by whoever read the letters themselves. There was no suggestion, if I recall correctly, that letters were burned in that 'quantity of paper' in the fireplace that night.

[belinda]

Did you ever consider that maybe no-one else could read the letters, because of that they were thrown away?

Another girl states that she knew the deceased two years ago. She was then living at Cooley's (sic) lodging house in Thrall street, Spitalfields. She walked the streets, and while living there met Barnett. She went to live with him in Dorset street. Kelly was a Welsh woman, and could speak Welsh fluently.
Daily News, Nov. 10, 1888

Regards, Jon S.

During the 19th Century the Welsh language along with Irish and Scots Gaelic were prohibited by the English Government. In Wales all schools only taught in English.Children caught speaking in Welsh were made to wear signs round their necks as a form of punishment.

[Stephen Thomas]

Amongst my vast collection of JTR memorabilia I happen to have a birthday card sent to Mary Kelly by her mother sent to 27 Dorset Street. It reads 'Happy Birthday to my dear daughter from your loving mammy . I was going to put a £5 note in this card but I'd already stuck down the envelope'.

[belinda]

Amongst my vast collection of JTR memorabilia I happen to have a birthday card sent to Mary Kelly by her mother sent to 27 Dorset Street. It reads 'Happy Birthday to my dear daughter from your loving mammy . I was going to put a £5 note in this card but I'd already stuck down the envelope'.

It's amazing how often that happens

[Wickerman]

During the 19th Century the Welsh language along with Irish and Scots Gaelic were prohibited by the English Government. In Wales all schools only taught in English. Children caught speaking in Welsh were made to wear signs round their necks as a form of punishment.

Ah well, that settles it... The Welsh language died out in the 19th century.
Be sure to remind them on your next visit to: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch.


Regards, Jon S.

[belinda]

Ah well, that settles it... The Welsh language died out in the 19th century.
Be sure to remind them on your next visit to: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch.


Regards, Jon S.

Thank You for your valuble contribution

[The Grave Maurice]

Be sure to remind them on your next visit to: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch.

Aside: Gee, that takes me back. My paternal step-grandmother was Welsh and, when I was a child, whenever we went to her house, I'd get her to say the name of that town repeatedly. Never got tired of hearing it, me. I remember that it means something like: church in the valley by a swift-flowing river near the trees.... Now, I'll have to go look it up. Thanks, though. I enjoyed the memory.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike,

All I said was that I had a niggly feeling that it was political, without knowing of course.
Sorry my friend, I ain't biting the bait.

best wishes

Phil