McCarthy Family

[chubbs]

I've just started to dip my toe into the archives of Charles Booth's Notebooks - his survey into the life & work of Londoners (1886-1903) and almost immediately stumbled across this...



Is 'the notorious Jack McCarthy of Dorset Street' the same McCarthy who was MJK's landlord?

link - https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebook/booth-b-351?page=59

[chubbs]

Going back one page (yes, I'm doing this in a haphazard, piecemeal way, it starts like this...

[seanr]

I've just started to dip my toe into the archives of Charles Booth's Notebooks - his survey into the life & work of Londoners (1886-1903) and almost immediately stumbled across this...



Is 'the notorious Jack McCarthy of Dorset Street' the same McCarthy who was MJK's landlord?

link - https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebook/booth-b-351?page=59

Yes, same chap. Also he is the same John McCarthy as later went on to found the Ring boxing club in Blackfriars. He also appears to have been good friends, or at least had a cordial business relationship with this chap - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Barnato

Just an ordinary mild mannered landlord, I imagine.

[chubbs]

Yes, same chap. Also he is the same John McCarthy as later went on to found the Ring boxing club in Blackfriars. He also appears to have been good friends, or at least had a cordial business relationship with this chap - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Barnato

Just an ordinary mild mannered landlord, I imagine.

Barney Barnato - thanks for the link. Looks like he died in very similar circumstances to dear old Robert Maxwell.

[Scott Nelson]

Is 'the notorious Jack McCarthy of Dorset Street' the same McCarthy who was MJK's landlord?

Separate people. The "notorious Jack McCarthy of Dorset Street" operated a grocer's business at 27 Dorset Street. There was another John McCarthy who lived there (described as a "General Shop Keeper" who was born in Spitalfields, not Dieppe, France) and who was MJKs landlord.

[seanr]

Separate people. The "notorious Jack McCarthy of Dorset Street" operated a grocer's business at 27 Dorset Street. There was another John McCarthy who lived there (described as a "General Shop Keeper" who was born in Spitalfields, not Dieppe, France) and who was MJKs landlord.

Give it up.

[seanr]

Barney Barnato - thanks for the link. Looks like he died in very similar circumstances to dear old Robert Maxwell.

Yeah, Barney Barnato's death does remind me of Maxwell's passing. Here's the Wanted poster for Barnato's nephew, who went on the run from the authorities in Kimberley when he was facing charges for illicit diamond dealing and keeping an improper register. Cecil Rhodes himself wrote to the UK Parliament to ask that the arrest warrant and extradition order for him was quashed so that he could return to England. Which was done.

The Joel familiy ran the pub The King of Prussia on the corner of Petticoat Lane and Middlesex Street, Barney Barnato's older brother ran the pub for a time and the pub had an association with boxing, before he set sail for Kimberley hearing that there was a fortune to be made from diamonds. He wrote to Barney, who sailed out there to join him apparently with no money and so had to walk from Cape Town to Kimberley. This was in 1873, by 1888 he was recognised as one of the richest men in the entire world. An extra-ordinary rise. The pub was left in the hands of the Joel brothers, but eventually they to went to South Africa to join the new family business of diamond mining.

There was a remarkable jewellery market to be found in Spitalfields in an area called officially St James Place, but mostly better known as Duke's Place. There's this fascinating description from the book Unsentimental Journeys; or Byways of the Modern Babylon, by James Greenwood, published 1867 but based on newspaper articles from a few of years before https://www.victorianlondon.org/publ...imental-22.htm.

The jewellery market seems to have continued right up until the Second World War, until the area was destroyed in the Blitz. Christmas Humphrey's described the market in 1913 as a receiver's paradise.

The inter-relation between the sites chosen by the chiefs of the receivers and the liquor trade would provide, were they to notice it, our friends who advocate the abolition of all alcoholic beverage with yet another arrow for their quiver of invective, for the site in nearly every instance, and needless to say they are all well known to the police, is outside a public house!

To this rule there are exceptions, one of them being “Duke’s Place” on a Sunday morning. This unique market, situated in Houndsditch, in the East End of London, is a receiver’s paradise, where jewellery is bought and sold on barrows as though it were so much grocery.

The Great Pearl Robbery of 1913. A Record of Fact. By Christmas Humphreys. William Heinemann Ltd. 1929. Emphasis mine.

James Greenwood also mentioned jewels piled like cherrystones in his description from the 1860s. Seems to have been a practice to have prescious stones piled up in barrows.

At the time of the visit in 1898, there were two men who ran businesses that lent barrows to the markets in Spitalfields, both of whom are mentioned in those notes. One being Frederick Gehringer of Great Pearl Street and the other being John McCarthy of Dorset Street.

It's a funny old world.

[seanr]

Here's the Wanted poster for Barnato's nephew, who went on the run from the authorities in Kimberley when he was facing charges for illicit diamond dealing and keeping an improper register. Cecil Rhodes himself wrote to the UK Parliament to ask that the arrest warrant and extradition order for him was quashed so that he could return to England. Which was done.

Managed to forget to post the link: https://uniqueatpenn.wordpress.com/2...er-isaac-joel/

[chubbs]

Yeah, Barney Barnato's death does remind me of Maxwell's passing. Here's the Wanted poster for Barnato's nephew, who went on the run from the authorities in Kimberley when he was facing charges for illicit diamond dealing and keeping an improper register. Cecil Rhodes himself wrote to the UK Parliament to ask that the arrest warrant and extradition order for him was quashed so that he could return to England. Which was done.

The Joel familiy ran the pub The King of Prussia on the corner of Petticoat Lane and Middlesex Street, Barney Barnato's older brother ran the pub for a time and the pub had an association with boxing, before he set sail for Kimberley hearing that there was a fortune to be made from diamonds. He wrote to Barney, who sailed out there to join him apparently with no money and so had to walk from Cape Town to Kimberley. This was in 1873, by 1888 he was recognised as one of the richest men in the entire world. An extra-ordinary rise. The pub was left in the hands of the Joel brothers, but eventually they to went to South Africa to join the new family business of diamond mining.

There was a remarkable jewellery market to be found in Spitalfields in an area called officially St James Place, but mostly better known as Duke's Place. There's this fascinating description from the book Unsentimental Journeys; or Byways of the Modern Babylon, by James Greenwood, published 1867 but based on newspaper articles from a few of years before https://www.victorianlondon.org/publ...imental-22.htm.

The jewellery market seems to have continued right up until the Second World War, until the area was destroyed in the Blitz. Christmas Humphrey's described the market in 1913 as a receiver's paradise.


The Great Pearl Robbery of 1913. A Record of Fact. By Christmas Humphreys. William Heinemann Ltd. 1929. Emphasis mine.

James Greenwood also mentioned jewels piled like cherrystones in his description from the 1860s. Seems to have been a practice to have prescious stones piled up in barrows.

At the time of the visit in 1898, there were two men who ran businesses that lent barrows to the markets in Spitalfields, both of whom are mentioned in those notes. One being Frederick Gehringer of Great Pearl Street and the other being John McCarthy of Dorset Street.

It's a funny old world.

Wow, thank you! A mere 'like' seems insufficient for that post. Now I've got to read your link!


Edit: Your link! What a superb portrait of those jewellery rooms. Thanks.

[The Rookie Detective]

Yeah, Barney Barnato's death does remind me of Maxwell's passing. Here's the Wanted poster for Barnato's nephew, who went on the run from the authorities in Kimberley when he was facing charges for illicit diamond dealing and keeping an improper register. Cecil Rhodes himself wrote to the UK Parliament to ask that the arrest warrant and extradition order for him was quashed so that he could return to England. Which was done.

The Joel familiy ran the pub The King of Prussia on the corner of Petticoat Lane and Middlesex Street, Barney Barnato's older brother ran the pub for a time and the pub had an association with boxing, before he set sail for Kimberley hearing that there was a fortune to be made from diamonds. He wrote to Barney, who sailed out there to join him apparently with no money and so had to walk from Cape Town to Kimberley. This was in 1873, by 1888 he was recognised as one of the richest men in the entire world. An extra-ordinary rise. The pub was left in the hands of the Joel brothers, but eventually they to went to South Africa to join the new family business of diamond mining.

There was a remarkable jewellery market to be found in Spitalfields in an area called officially St James Place, but mostly better known as Duke's Place. There's this fascinating description from the book Unsentimental Journeys; or Byways of the Modern Babylon, by James Greenwood, published 1867 but based on newspaper articles from a few of years before https://www.victorianlondon.org/publ...imental-22.htm.

The jewellery market seems to have continued right up until the Second World War, until the area was destroyed in the Blitz. Christmas Humphrey's described the market in 1913 as a receiver's paradise.


The Great Pearl Robbery of 1913. A Record of Fact. By Christmas Humphreys. William Heinemann Ltd. 1929. Emphasis mine.

James Greenwood also mentioned jewels piled like cherrystones in his description from the 1860s. Seems to have been a practice to have prescious stones piled up in barrows.

At the time of the visit in 1898, there were two men who ran businesses that lent barrows to the markets in Spitalfields, both of whom are mentioned in those notes. One being Frederick Gehringer of Great Pearl Street and the other being John McCarthy of Dorset Street.

It's a funny old world.

Fred Gehringer's other half was also notorious for being violent, and she had a record for using a knife. She assaulted several people and was a dangerous individual.

His brother George was also a butcher who ran an establishment just off Cable Street.
It was raided by police and subsequently reported in the press. Apparently the sanitary conditions there were absolutely vile and the meat unfit for human consumption.

Other than Wentworth Street, there was also a link with Mitre Street; with one the Gehringer brothers having lived there.

The Gehringer family are IMO one of the most overlooked.

Fred Gehringer became a key figure in the area and was considered a man with influence and power.

[C. F. Leon]

Give it up.

??? I'm missing the joke here.

[seanr]

??? I'm missing the joke here.

Scott has been posting repeatedly for years about the two John McCarthy's listed at 27 Dorset Street in the 1891 census arguing this second John McCarthy was the landlord of Mary Jane Kelly, insisting despite all the evidence to the contrary and without bringing any evidence of his own to support his claim.
I believe he argues this in bad faith. There isn't really a joke, more exasperation at how Scott approaches the topic.

[seanr]

Wow, thank you! A mere 'like' seems insufficient for that post. Now I've got to read your link!


Edit: Your link! What a superb portrait of those jewellery rooms. Thanks.

The London Museum has the illustration which original accompanied Greenwood's article, too.

https://www.londonmuseum.org.uk/collections/v/object-795050/the-houndsditch-jewellery-market/

[chubbs]

The London Museum has the illustration which original accompanied Greenwood's article, too.

https://www.londonmuseum.org.uk/collections/v/object-795050/the-houndsditch-jewellery-market/

To be fair to the article, that room was way more crowded than the illustration suggests! And nobody nicked anything? Amazing.

[Scott Nelson]

Scott has been posting repeatedly for years about the two John McCarthy's listed at 27 Dorset Street in the 1891 census arguing this second John McCarthy was the landlord of Mary Jane Kelly, insisting despite all the evidence to the contrary and without bringing any evidence of his own to support his claim.
I believe he argues this in bad faith. There isn't really a joke, more exasperation at how Scott approaches the topic.

I argued by asking questions I thought were relevant to McCarthy's disposition while he was listed at 27 Dorset Street. Did he mind having lodgers who were prostitutes living alongside his wife and children? It is unthinkable to me that he was still living there (1891 census) with wife and daughters two and a half years after the murder of MJK, in a room less than a couple of yards away from where they supposedly lived.

Was he actually using 27 Dorset Street only as a postal address for his grocer's business? Why did he apparently want people to think that he and his family lived there, as the address was also listed on electoral rolls, birth certificates, school registration records for his children, etc.? I think part of the answer could be McCarthy's activities involved the underworld and he was afraid to use his actual residence in official documents. The other reason is because he may have been claiming residency to vote or use his influence in the area for particular charitable causes, as I have discussed before.

If he actually lived there, do you think he could have had a part of this Feb. 13, 1886 letter to the Medical Officer of Health from the Manson House Council on Dwellings of the People" "We the undersigned householders, living near to Millers-court and 26 and 27 Dorset Street, are in a condition or state dangerous to health, so as to be unfit for human habitation, and request that you will forthwith inspect the said premises and report thereon as required by section 12 of the Artizans Act of 1868."* If it was so bad, why did McCarthy continue to live there with a vulnerable family when he could well-afford to live in a safer, more upscale area?

So you can cite census returns, children's birth records, land tax records lodging house registers, etc. all showing his residency at 27 Dorset Street, but my bet is that he and his family actually lived elsewhere, probably under an alias, all the while listing the 27 Dorset Street location.

I don't argue any of this in 'bad faith'. It's almost as bad as Gary claiming that I just make things up.

* posted by Gary Barnett on another thread