McCarthy Family

[DrHopper]

Hi all

Hope no one minds, but i took the initiative.

So this is basically a new thread to discuss the issues raised in the 'Burnt Clothing' thread that was in danger of seriously coming off the rails.

see here for more (especially pages 6 & 7)

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5534

In particular, I am interested in any connection between Clan McCarthy and MJK, and I suppose, by extension, the origins of MJK - be they Ireland or Wales.

I have a few ideas, and some thoughts, but first I am going to get myself a Gin and Orange Juice (all out of tonic... and lemon, actually!)

[Varqm]

I'm more interested in the gin and lemon than the connection between MJK and McCarthy.

[Wickerman]

Quote:
I began to find out a little about McCarthy when I had an interesting idea regarding Mary Kelly. The only part of her background that is indisputably backed up by witness statement is that during 1885/6 she was living with a Mrs 'Carthy' in Breezer's Hill. This is still the eighty-metre stretch of street it was then, and leads uphill from Pennington Street to The Highway, which in 1885 was called St George Street, just north of the London Docks North Quay. In 1891 there were still just four houses in this street, and at No 1 lived John and Mary McCarthy. I could hardly credit the coincidence that in 1885 there lived in one of those four houses a Mrs 'Carthy', while just six years later there lived a Mrs McCarthy, and came to the conclusion that the press had misquoted her name in their reports after the murder of Mary Kelly. Carthy is an extremely rare name - there is not even one listed in the current Central London Phone Book, and the only one listed in the Post Office Street Directory for 1885 is William Carthy newsagent, 32a Mile End Road.

Please read the whole dissertation..

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-mkb.html

Regards, Jon S.

[Supe]

More up to date musings and findings about Mrs. Carthy can be found in Neal Shelden's article "Morganstone, Elizabeth Phoenix and Mrs. Carthy" in Casebook Examiner No. 1 (April 2010).

Don Souden.

[DrHopper]

I'm more interested in the gin and lemon than the connection between MJK and McCarthy.

Ah yes, the connection between Gin and Lemon (and let's not forget out friend Tonic)... mmmmmm.

As I stated in the Burnt Clothing thread I have long harboured a suspicion that MJK is related, probably rather distantly (although perhaps not), to the McCarthys. I have done some research into MJK's origins - nothing too earth-shattering, but it has thrown up some interesting results that may, or may not, have any validity. I will share once I have done a bit more poking around, but unfortunately real-life has got in the way of research! Also, this does not tie in with McCarthy in any way that I can see... at the moment!

However, I am particularly interested in the genealogy of the McCarthys. So, has anyone one any research on them pre-1888? Or is this an as yet un-mined resource?

In short, if we start with a hypothtical assumption (and disregarding argument pro and anti for a moment) that Kelly is related to the McCarthys, if we can research their lineage comprehensively enough (and remembering that they are an established, relatively stable and well known family), we should be able to pinpoint MJK.

OK, assumptions.
1) She is related to McCarthy
2) This relationship will only go back maximum of 3 generations, as anything beyond this point, and the relationship tends to get lost i.e. our grandparent's cousins - how many of us really know them well enough to talk to?
3) Kelly may or may not be her real name. I suspect it was not, mainly due to the lack of any trace of a Kelly, but that's just a hunch.
4) She may be related by blood (more likely I think) or by marriage.
5) That the generally agreed biography of her life is a mixture of truth, misremembered truths, lies, embellishments, and a product of dodgy memories that cannot all be true.
6) She does have family out there somewhere waiting to be discovered

Let's see if this can throw anything up - particularly a Welsh connection or even a French connection (how the hell was McCarthy born in France? That to me seems really odd!)

[Phil Carter]

Hello Dr H,

I found this on a John McCarthy. The first name that came up with a direct spelling, was born in France, and is of the right age:-


It was found in the US 1880 census:-

Franklin, Greene, Pennsylvania

John A. MCCARTHY

Birth Year <1850>
Birthplace FRA
Age 30
Occupation Miner
Marital Status S <Single>
Race W <White>
Head of Household Robert HOWIE
Relation Other
Father's Birthplace IRE
Mother's Birthplace FRA

The household details are thus:-

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Race Age Birthplace Occupation Father's Birthplace Mother's Birthplace
Robert HOWIE Self M Male W 35 SCOT Coal Miner SCOT SCOT
Annie HOWIE Wife M Female W 33 SCOT Keeping House SCOT SCOT
Robert HOWIE Son S Male W 11 SCOT SCOT SCOT
Grace HOWIE Dau S Female W 1 PA SCOT SCOT
John A. MCCARTHY Other S Male W 30 FRA Miner IRE FRA

So the important details here apart from the age of JM, are that his father was Irish, and his mother was French.

He lived in the US, working as a miner, in 1880.

That should start the ball rolling...

best wishes

Phil

[claire]

Phil, you're terrible

Tell you one thing. Everyone* likes to get all excited by this McCarthy/Carthy putative link. It's as tenuous, I think, as building a theory around there being two Joes, or a Barnett being a landowner in Dorset-street, or victims sleeping in 26 Dorset-street or giving the name of Mary Kelly. I know it's tempting to get excited whenever we see duplicate names, and there are plenty of cases where good researchers have got carried away and conflated two separate things (the Frying Pan pub being on Frying Pan Alley, in that Peter Ackroyd edited book, grrrr). But I advise caution. Schoolmarmy lecture over.

*well, not everyone. Clearly.

[Stephen Thomas]

I searched here for the McCarthy wedding certificate (apparently it doesn't exist or is unavailable) and came across this very interesting discussion from 8 years ago on the archived boards.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/5575.html

[Phil Carter]

Hello Claire,

All I did was put up a link to A McCarthy.. nothing more. I didnt say it was THE McCarthy.

best wishes

Phil

[claire]

Heh heh. Still naughty.

[coral]

Hi Phil

I very much doubt that you have found the correct John McCarthy in the US.

On the UK cenus for 1881 he is shown as living at 27 Dorset Street with
his wife, 3 children, his brother & a lodger. Occupation - general dealer

His chidren are aged between 2 and 7 - all being born in the East End.

Coral

[Phil Carter]

Hello Coral,

I didn't say I have, I just started the ball rolling, that's all. The point is that by ruling out some, one can home in on others, no?

best wishes

Phil

[DrHopper]

Hello all

Indeed, the more McCarthys we can cross off, the more we can focus on the ones that matter.
Actually, in terms of family location, we cannot rule out America - a popular destination with Irish emigrants. Hopefully that will become apparent.

Rather annoyingly, I'm having a little trouble with my Ancestry.co.uk account - it wont let me in. Not sure what the problem is, but hey ho.

However, I have had a scout around the details that are already out there. OK, we know that our John McCarthy was born c.1849/51 ish in France. Dieppe being a big seaport, we may suggest that his father was connected with the maritime industry, although what his wife was doing with him is another mystery - anyone shed light on this? What does the 1861 census entry for his father state as occupation?

John McCarthy's parents are stated as Daniel and Margaret. OK, it is the siblings of these that I think we should concentrate on identifying, and then looking at their children - at least in the first instance. If the theory that MJK is related to the McCarthys, then it seems logical to assume that she will be one of these cousins. Especially if, as it seems, she had family (i.e. parents) in Ireland. That stated, I keep coming up against the name McCarthy in association with Glamorgan, Wales. So perhaps we see something else emerging.

As soon as i can get my bloody Ancestry up and running again, I'll post what i can find. In the meantime, if anyone would like to dive in and lend a hand, then please go ahead.

Tim

[DrHopper]

A quick thought on the double John McCarthys in the 1891 census - they may be cousins. I think it is a little too coincident (though not completely impossible) that 2 John McCarthys would be living at the same address. I would suggest that the John McCarthy not born in France is not our John McCarthy, but is in fact his cousin - his father's brother's child. The name shared by both may perhaps be their common grandfather's.

Also, re-reading old message posts, I would concur with Simon Wood's suggestion that Daniel McCarthy, John's father, was probably a navvie working on the Dieppe to Paris railway line from 1847 onwards - Here
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=131972 - post #10

[lynn cates]

marriage

Hello Dr. H. Is this the same chap?

Cheers.
LC