The burnt clothing

[Stephen Thomas]

Fair enough, Donald. It's been a while since I read your "Time Is On My Side" piece (and longer still since I listened to the song).

Hi Phil

I do hope you're referring to the original recording by the early 60s New Orleans soul diva Irma Thomas and not some inadequate British cover version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCyDnj3S4bE

All the best

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
According to Fiona[ McCarthys great grandaughter] he was prone to oversea the comings and goings on in the court, although I doubt he had his eyes focused 24/7 on room 13, however I would not put in past young McCarthy[ Fionas grandfather] having the ocassional gaze at 24 year old Mary, who he described as being pretty.... puberty and all that..
One question I would like answered.
If Bowyer accompanied by his employer McCarthy, went to inform the police after finding the body , who stayed with the almost certain disturbed Mrs Mccarthy and son, who were allegedly collecting rents in the court at that time, infact one report has young McCarthy initially viewing the body??
I cannot believe that he left the premises unguarded so others could find that bloodbath.
Regards Richard.

[Stephen Thomas]

Now that's what I call gremlins.

I post a link to Irma Thomas and get dancing Stormtroopers and then can't cancel it.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Interesting points, gentlemen. The kettle and door have always troubled me, too.

Richard, I'm not quite sure why you conclude that the kettle had to be damaged on the morning of MJK's death. The damage could have been done much earlier. Perhaps Maria brought her own kettle, perhaps they didn't have tea on that particular day, perhaps there was a brand new kettle, but JtR put MJK's heart in it for easy transport. Who knows? In any event, I can't see clothing of any sort producing enough heat to melt solder.

Phil, I like your thinking about the door. Why didn't someone simply reach in and unlock it? You could probably get an article out of this question by expanding on your last post.

There are many possibilities.

One is that quite simply they were spooked with what they saw inside and no one wanted to reach through the window to the door. Maybe they felt sick and wanted to get in in a way that reduced the chance of reaching onto a lock covered in blood and flesh?

Just me, but I don't think there's a great deal of mystery in the lock/key. I think he's just walked out and the door's locked behind him, and the police have chosen to smash the door in for their own reasons.

Great point by the poster who said Cox didn't mention anyone reaching through the window. Now either Cox forgot to mention that, or Kelly left her door on the latch and it follows she wasn't overly scared of JTR as suggested by some (nightmares etc). I'll go for the latter.

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
During the Ripper scare, I doubt if any room occupied by any female , was either not locked , or [ like Prater] barrackaded with furnature.
As for Kelly not being alarmed at the murders , I would suggest she was absolutely terrified, and I would say the sleepovers would indicate she hated being alone in that little room, especially since her [ alleged ]nightmare.
So as for Mary leaving her door on the latch. not on your nellie...
Regards Richard.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi ,
During the Ripper scare, I doubt if any room occupied by any female , was either not locked , or [ like Prater] barrackaded with furnature.
As for Kelly not being alarmed at the murders , I would suggest she was absolutely terrified, and I would say the sleepovers would indicate she hated being alone in that little room, especially since her [ alleged ]nightmare.
So as for Mary leaving her door on the latch. not on your nellie...
Regards Richard.

Except Mary is taking a bloke back to her room....

[Hatchett]

Hi,

I think the point is that Mary is taking a "client" back to her room with her guard up. When she retired, and undressed, and possibly left her clothes out to dry form the show in the morning, she certainly would have either locked the door or barracaded it before she went to sleep. No matter how drunk she was.

I think Richard is correct on that. Someone either sneaked in from perhaps the window, or Mary opened the door in her drowsy state to someone that she trusted. It was an unwise trust. And it cost her her life.

Best wishes.

Hatchett.

[Archaic]

Hi Richard.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know the age of McCarthy's son? (Anyone else who knows the answer is welcome to answer too.)

I wonder if McCarthy took a minute to warn his wife and son not to go anywhere near Mary's room?

No man would want his wife and child to see such a horrible sight.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Wickerman]

...So as for Mary leaving her door on the latch. not on your nellie...
Regards Richard.

So let me understand this, here we have a woman who thinks nothing about bringing total strangers back to her room, yet is petrified of a total stranger breaking in?



Oh, I get it,...the 'breaker in' hasn't payed...

[Wickerman]

Hi Richard.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know the age of McCarthy's son?

The son is listed in the 1891 census, I could look him up if you like.

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

McCarthy's shop presumably had more then one window, and being the landlord I'm sure he tried to keep an eye on all of his rental units. But then again McCarthy was running a chandler's shop, selling candles, victuals, etc, as well as keeping his rental accounts for Miller's Court and other business investments, so he couldn't sit looking out the window all day. Mary's apartment was visible through the back window of his shop, but my guess is that a shop owner is more often facing the front of his shop where the customers enter than the back of it.

The various shop windows would have given McCarthy a general idea of the daytime and evening activity around his rental units, and I'm sure all his tenants knew this. I would venture to guess that the tenants knew the landlord's daily habits, and they knew his. If McCarthy was truly taking percentages from some of his tenants' earnings from prostitution, knowing that the landlord might have been watching one's doorway at some point during the evening would certainly have been a deterrent to bilking him of one's earnings- as would the threat of eviction for being in arrears.

Being a busy man with a family, McCarthy probably slept during the night- unlike certain of his tenants, who conducted business during those hours. So while McCarthy did have a view of Mary's apartment from his shop's back window, that basically gave him a sporadic overview of the area around her door during shop hours- I certainly don't think that amounted to 24-hour surveillance!

Mary had gone out looking for clients fairly early on the evening of Thursday Nov. 8th. McCarthy might have seen Mary go out at 9-10 PM or so. He might reasonably have concluded that she would earn some money that night. It would therefore make sense for McCarthy to make a mental note to send Bowyer round in the morning to collect those earnings before Mary had a chance to go out and spend them.

That being said, I think it highly unlikely that McCarthy or anyone else was actively "watching" Mary Kelly's door at 2 AM.

Best regards,
Archaic

Hello Archaic,

Thanks for the reply. You are not sure what I am getting at? Allow me to explain a little.

Your last line says it. I am not talking about "2 a.m", nor. for that matter am I talking about "sleeping during the night" either. The likelyhood is that she wasn't murdered "during the night". The time period here is the early morning, from 6 a.m. onwards. Possibly after 9 a.m. On the morning of the Lord Mayor's Show. It was totally normal for people to be up and about at 6 am onwards. The McCarthy household included. The morning of the Lord Mayor's show is important. People getting ready. The "alleyway" or "extended archway" if you prefer, into Miller's Court from Dorset Street is no more than 4ft wide. It is very narrow. We are not talking about "more than one window",we talk here of a specific window, directly opposite the door to No.13. I am not talking 24/7 vigil here either.

Hello Richard,

According to Fiona McCarthy, as Richard pointed out, a little later that morning the family were collecting rents. IF the report that young McCarthy jnr first witnessing the bloodbath is correct, and IF he and his mother were collecting rents, did he come back to the shop and say to his father, "knocked at No.13, no answer, etc". Dad sends Bowyer to check it out. Sounds plausible to me.
You raise another very pertinent point. That room would be unguarded from the moment JM and TB went up the road to get a policeman. With mother and child perhaps knowing what lay beind those curtains? Telling mother and child to saty well clear of that door, room etc and to stay indoors, would be paramount. If JM did "catch up" (as Don in his dissertation suggests) with Bowyer, I feel this scenario stronger than any other likelyhood that JM entered the room at all, as suggested as a possibility in Don's excellent article.

Hello Fleetwood,

"The police simply "chose" to smash the door down for their own reasons"?
What reason would that be? Because there are many very good reasons not to do exactly that. One being that when anyone stared through that wndow, policemen especially, their trained eyes would look around the room. The room was tiny and the latch on the door was almost right infront of them to their right as they looked. It really doesnt take too much intelligence to work out how to open the door. Kelly and Barnett did.

best wishes all,

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Wickerman,

1881 census


John MC CARTHY Head M Male 30 born (British Subject), France General Dealer
Elizabeth MC CARTHY Wife M Female 29 born Spitalfields
John MC CARTHY Son Male 7 born Spitalfields Scholar
Margaret MC CARTHY Daur Female 5 born Shadwell Scholar
Elizabeth MC CARTHY Daur Female 2 born Spitalfields
Daniel MC CARTHY Brother U Male 19 born Lambeth, Surrey, England Shopman (General Shop)
Henry BUCKLEY Border U Male 24 born Mile End Shopman (General Shop)

Source Information:
Dwelling 27 Dorset St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England

best wishes

Phil

[Archaic]

Hello Archaic,

Thanks for the reply. You are not sure what I am getting at? Allow me to explain a little.

Your last line says it. I am not talking about "2 a.m", nor. for that matter am I talking about "sleeping during the night" either. The likelyhood is that she wasn't murdered "during the night". The time period here is the early morning, from 6 a.m. onwards. Possibly after 9 a.m. On the morning of the Lord Mayor's Show. It was totally normal for people to be up and about at 6 am onwards.

Thanks for explaining. I didn't realize you were taking the position that Mary was killed from 6 AM to 9AM, or even later. I personally disagree with that theory for a number of reasons; far too many to go into here without derailing the thread.

I'm afraid I also have to take exception to the sentence "The likelihood is that she wasn't murdered 'during the night'." You are of course welcome to your opinion, but that is a statement of personal opinion rather than a statement of fact. The police in 1888 and many Ripperologists today would disagree with that "likelihood".

But I agree with you that it was quite normal for people in the neighborhood to be up at 6 AM. Those who worked in the markets, etc, were often up even earlier.

Thanks for providing the 1881 census info. So the young John McCarthy was quite young, only about 14 years old in 1888. Let us hope that young boy didn't get a peek inside #13.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Wickerman]

Thankyou Phil.
Now we can see the family has expanded by 1891, I separated them into respective families to make reading easier.
As we can see there are now 2 John McCarthy's, both aged 42, one born in Spitalfields, the other in Dieppe, France.
I wonder if Mary Kelly's adventures in France do have a basis in fact?

1891 Census.

27 Dorset St.
John McCarthy, Head, 42, General Shop Keeper, Born: Spitalfields.
Mary McCarthy, Wife, 36 or 38, Born: Spitalfields.
George McCarthy, Son, Single, 16.

Daniel McCarthy, Head, 29, Grocer, Southwark.
Ann McCarthy, Wife, 23, Southwark.

John McCarthy, Head, 42, Grocer, Dieppe, France.
Elizabeth McCarthy, Wife, 38, Shoreditch.
Margaret McCarthy, Daug. Single, 15. St George E.
Elizabeth McCarthy, Daug. Single, 12, St George E.
Ann McCarthy, Daug. Single, 6, Spitalfields.
Shelly McCarthy, Daug. Single, 8 months, Spitalfields.

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Archaic,

Thanks for the reply. Let us indeed hope that young Master McCarthy wasn't witness to that depravity.

"The likelyhood is" etc has a basis in many things. (re derailing..agreed)..It isn't just any theory either, just one I lean towards. It has been discussed by hundreds before me on the boards I'd wager. Pro and against. Ripperologists all. The police in 1888 Archaic, didnt have a clue what was going on, they were chasing shadows all over the shop, and were run by the top brass badly. The idiocy outside 13 Millers Court is a prime example. Reid summed it up best. Not a "tittle" of evidence...etc.. Dr Percy Clark said much that was sensible, yet the doctors couldnt agree either. Modern doctors who know much more also disagree with the rigor mortis conclusions (timewise) about Kelly. The coroner at Kelly's inquest was, well "remarkable" in his handling of it.

The burnt clothing? I agree with Richard. The heat generated would not be enough to melt that kettle. Something else musr have been added tp that fire, or it was done and left on a long burning fire previously. Possibly knocked over into it at some point.

4 a.m. here.. time for some shut eye.

best wishes

Phil